Turn 10 and Forza Motorsport. What happened?

[Xplainin]

Im a big Forza fan. I love both Motorsport and Horizon. I was really, really looking forward to this new, rebuilt from the ground up to take advantage of the Xbox Series X, game, from a studio I considered to be wizards.

I have been playing Forza from early access, and im left scratching my head. What happened?

The actual gameplay and racing mechanics are great. Its as good as Forza has been, from a pick up and play point of view. Its better than GT7, better than AC, better than Horizon even.

But…what a disappointment from a graphics point of view. Either this game was released 6-12 months too early, or Turn 10 need to have a look at themselves. Im left thinking its coming in incomplete, as some cars, some races, look astounding. It looks like the best racing game on the planet. But then, some car and races look really, really poor. It can look like an Xbox 360 version of Forza MS. There are some of the blandest, flat matte textures I have seen since Mirrors Edge. Some cars are totally absent any paint material shaders, and look like a placecard holder at best.

Some cars dont have any lighting, shadows, cube maps, and certainly no RT reflections present when driving around the track. Have they just used old car models?

Now, either the game has glitches which need to be fixed and patched, which begs the question why the game has released in this shape after 6 years of work, or Turn 10 think this is an excellent looking game, which begs other questions.

Outside of the graphics, there are longer than expected loading times and even pop in. T10 sold this new engine as built from the ground up to take full advantage of the new consoles and all the new DX12U additions. Mesh shaders, Sampler Feedback Streaming, Xbox Velocity Architecture to name just some of them. We have heard all generation about how we havent seen what these consoles can produce, as the games are built on last generation engines, yet here we are with the same issues.

Now, im sure some people dont care, and will give Xbox a pass no matter what happens, but to me I was looking to this game to showcase the XSXs abilites. After playing it I am left with a number of different questions. Did I over rate Turn 10? Are they no longer the same studio they used to be? Is the Forzatech 2.0 engine not taking advantage of the XSXs features that we accused all other developers of being too lazy to implement? Is the XSX just not that powerful? Are the DX12U extensions not that impressive as we were told they were? Is this game still unfinished?

Thats my vent, not sure what others have thought.

[nrXic]

I made a couple of posts in the graphics thread that you may have already seen and while my topic isn’t exactly what you’re talking about it’s a bit adjacent it might interest you:

Games Analysis |OT| Time To Argue About Pixels And Frames!

I hope it’s ok for me to post this in this thread, but I wanted to get all of your feedback on the following idea I have been stewing on for a while: seeking “video realism” in games. That is, instead of trying to look like real life, trying to look like a real recording. It is best recently exemplified by those UE5 “bodycam” games popping up, but I’ve always thought racing games should try it as well ever since F1 and NASCAR adopted the tech widely in the early 2000s. When setting up a streami…

Games Analysis |OT| Time To Argue About Pixels And Frames!

I couldn’t help myself and went another step further after finding out I can do some post-processing in OBS. This time, I’ve added lens distortion which creates a fisheye effect and adds chromatic aberration (which I had to add as 2 separate effects). I would really like to know if I’m crazy, because it looks great to me? Like I wish this was all put in the game right now. Since it’s all post processing, it should be pretty cheap to implement but then again, we’re dealing with 4K images instead…

Because I agree to an extent. I personally think the models and the track detail and a lot of it is good but yes there are some issues with some texture detail, some car materials (which is often hidden with liveries), and so on. But I do think they nailed the technical aspects of lighting which is hugely important for making a realistic looking game.

My posts are about aiming for “video realism” rather than photorealism. But I think the end result is an impressive looking visual. Feel free to watch my videos at 2X because you won’t be missing much. I’m not a polished presenter so I sort of rambled but I did cover a lot of stuff in both videos.

[Zappy5]

It’s the best looking racing game on any console by a long distance. The inconsistency is mainly down to older car models being used and the fact that in real life some lighting situations look worse than others. That’s just how it is. The main thing that I think is contentious is they have gone for realism, not hyper realism. And that’s a departure for Forza and also different to GT. Their whole rationale with TAA for example is to make the game look more real and less hyper real. But in my view a lot of gamers don’t want realistic looking games they want hyper real super clean looking games. But that’s not what real racing looks like.

[EPC]

Do you imply that the game looks real but not real like gamers may think real racing should look like in a twisted warped vision of reality that is not correct ?

[Cpt_Haddock (Peeeter)]

I wrote about this on the FM thread, i think MS needs to optimize develoment times from their studios.

IMO there’s nothing that justifies that this game took over 6 years to develop and it released with so many glitches, bugs or crashes, graphics aren’t mind blowing, content isn’t that big compared to older games or competence ones, same goes for AI, way too basic.

Might be cause of the contractors strategy, or might be that the studios aren’t big enough, or could be a mix of both.

This said even tho the game needs at least like more months of cooking to fix these issues or to add some more content, specially track wise and Career mode one, base is great and if they keep working on the game, it’ll be a fun game to go eventually, i’m having big fun on the online mode.

[Andodalf]

99% Of online complaints I’ve seen are comparing Forza with it’s realtime Lighting to situations where other games have static baked lighting. That dies the second things move

[BadNews]

I agree with most of the OP. I think my main issue with the visuals is the palette seems dull and there are some visual hitches i have encountered on the series x. I do wonder if they stretched themselves thing implementing RT and didn’t have enough time for optimization.

I feel core gameplay they’ve nailed, but it was a major mistake tying upgrades to car levels. I feel railroading you into upgrades is all wrong for a circuit game, and they should’ve kept the freedom to upgrade whatever you want.

I think the major issue at the moment is the AI seems to be railroaded onto a route and doesn’t properly react to the race because the AI seems like to be the worst in the series imo. However, I assume they can fix this with some updates.

The major positives for me is the segment score, which is such an awesome feature and gives you something to improve on. I also like the idea of practice before race and it gives you time to get feel of track and the game can simulate where you should place on the grid. Also, the penalty system is very good.

I am enjoying this game a lot and it feels racing wise it could be the best in series, but it does seem the game could’ve used another delay for optimization and making sure it launched in a better state. I am a firm believer that first impressions are everything and releasing the game in it’s current state did some damage to the series. However, I think a lot of the criticism is overblown, but I don’t like how we have to wait 6-12 months for the game to be in a better state. Also only having 20 tracks seems too little because most racing games launch with much more.

[daveydragon]

I love Forza motorsport and am having a blast with it, however, it has to be said that I can’t see a huge leap forward graphically form other games I play such as Moto Gp and Ride 5. Ultimately though I put this down to the physics models having taken up a lot of the innovation that turn 10 talk about and to be honest am happy for that to be case as the game feels sooo good.

Maybe I am giving them a pass when I shouldn’t but graphics on XSX combined with what the game appears to be doin lg under the hood are more than enough for me…now they just need content to flow and I’ll be made up.

[Swanlee]

Nothing happened, the game is great and will be supported for years. It’s a tad bare bones but this will be fleshed out.

The driving is the most fun of any Forza MS game and the graphics are top notch and look very realistic.

[Xplainin]

@EPC

Do you imply that the game looks real but not real like gamers may think real racing should look like in a twisted warped vision of reality that is not correct ?

Not at all. Car games like Forza and GT have always tried to push ultra realistic looking cars. Most of the cars look like they have a dull, matte finish vynal wrap instead of paint. Their paint shaders are way off the mark. Some of the cars (try the Holden VL Walkenshaw) look like they are straight out of X360 games. Low res, no lighting, almost embarrassing to carry the Forza name.

[Xplainin]

@Swanlee

Nothing happened, the game is great and will be supported for years. It’s a tad bare bones but this will be fleshed out.

The driving is the most fun of any Forza MS game and the graphics are top notch and look very realistic.

The driving is fun, I enjoy playing it, however, its a massive step back from what they presented when they announced it, and it certainly does not sell the Forzatech 2.0 engine in any sort of way. The difference between some of the great looking races and things, comapred to the average is stark. Its like 50% of the game is running on the XSX, while another 50% is running on the X360. Thats unexcusable for a studio like Turn 10 and 6 years of development.

Dont give Xbox a pass when they put something out that isnt up to par. Call them out. Praise them when they do good, critise them when they pull a shitter.

[AtticusFincher]

Something is bugged about the paint materials. On the forza forum someone posted pictures comparing vinyl to paint.

[KageMaru]

I don’t agree with the OP in that the game can look like an Xbox 360 game at times but I do agree that Turn 10 wrote checked with their claims and trailers that the final game can’t cash. Maple valley is noticeably downgraded from what they showed last year, same with the RT reflections, even when maxed out on PC. I pointed this out in the review thread but the track textures are also lower resolution than what we had in FM7.

I still think the game looks great but it’s far fetched to say it’s by far the greatest looking racing game or even up to the standard that Turn 10 set themselves. They should have shown the actual game in progress to set realistic expectations and if the final game turned out better looking, great, they would have exceeded expectations. This is always why I push for publishers to clearly state what the trailers are running on.

I think the game has bigger issues though like the bugs, brain dead AI, and terrible upgrade model.

[Xplainin]

@KageMaru

…t the final game can’t cash. Maple valley is noticeably downgraded from what they showed last year, same with the RT reflections, even when maxed out on PC. I pointed this out in the review thread but the track textures are also lower resolution than what we had in FM7. I still think the game looks great but it’s far fetched to say it’s by far the greatest looking racing game or even up to the standard that Turn 10 set themselves. They should have shown the actual game in progress to set realistic expectations and if the final game turned out better looking, great, they would have exceeded expectations. This is always why I push for publishers to clearly state what the trailers are running on. I think the game has bigger issues though like the bugs, brain dead AI, and terrible upgrade model.

The game could have done with another 6-12 months polishing and fixing glitches as well as upgrading the.car.models that look a couple of generations older.

If it a case of the game not being ready for release other than Turn 10 not capable of making it better than it is, then we have another example of inefficiencies within Microsoft studios. Turn 10 used to put out a new game every 2 years, and judging by this state that FMS is currently in, it looks mostly like FMS 8 rather than a new game built from the ground up. So, 6 years spent on the game for this outcome, it just isnt good enough.

This hurts me to say, as I used to put T10 on a pedestal as a studio. They were ultra efficient, managed to release a game that ran at 4k60 with not a frame drop to be seen anywhere, even on the XO gimpped Jaguar cores. I was so excited to see what they would do with their new Forzatech engine. To me it was going to be one of our first glimpses at what the console is actually capable of.

[nrXic]

@AtticusFincher

…Something is bugged about the paint materials. On the forza forum someone posted pictures comparing vinyl to paint. 2048×1152 138 KB 876×492 696 KB

Unless I misunderstanding, that looks pretty accurate. Paint has a clear coat on it and as a result ambient lighting like the sky will be far more visible. All light will hit two surfaces the clear coat and then the paint underneath. With vinyl all light hits the vinyl and that’s it.

Though it is confusing because that clear coat should have a pronounced reflection and we’re not seeing that.

[KageMaru]

@Xplainin

…being ready for release other than Turn 10 not capable of making it better than it is, then we have another example of inefficiencies within Microsoft studios. Turn 10 used to put out a new game every 2 years, and judging by this state that FMS is currently in, it looks mostly like FMS 8 rather than a new game built from the ground up. So, 6 years spent on the game for this outcome, it just isnt good enough. This hurts me to say, as I used to put T10 on a pedestal as a studio. They were ultra efficient, managed to release a game that ran at 4k60 with not a frame drop to be seen anywhere, even on the XO gimpped Jaguar cores. I was so excited to see what they would do with their new Forzatech engine. To me it was going to be one of our first glimpses at what the console is actually capable of.

I don’t think you’re being entirely fair to Turn 10 here. Do I think the game should have been more polished at launch? Yes, absolutely. However updating the car models is a huge task, we’re talking 2-3 months per car. So at that point it comes down to do you want every car updated but have fewer cars or do you want a large selection with varying levels of quality? Personally I’d much rather have more cars.

I get wanting the models to he updated, and think it’s fair to request it, but you’re not going to get many new models in a 6-12 month time frame. The best we can hope for and request is Turn 10 update the car models over time since this appears to be the only FM we’re getting this gen. Hopefully they do upgrade them.

I think it’s more important that the materials be as good as they can be than to make sure they are accurate to the smallest Polygon. This also isn’t a reflection on the capabilities of Turn 10 but instead the demands of creating AAA games today. Assets just take far longer than what I think most realize.

When put in the perspective of rewriting a large part of the engine, from the physics, rendering, lighting, production pipeline, etc. I think they did a good job with the final result. Where I think they missed the mark is the AI, some questionable design choices, and setting proper expectations.

It’s the setting expectation part where I think is impacting you here. I don’t know if they are using mesh shaders and sampler feedback streaming, they never claimed to be using those features from what I recall. However what we’re seeing from the final product, I think it’s fair for them to say they built FM for the current gen consoles.

It’s not always the smartest idea to use every new feature a console offers just for the sake of using it. Keep in mind to use those new features, they would have to gut parts of the existing pipeline, prototype new parts of the engine, and hope all that work will produce better results than the parts of the engine that have been optimized and refined using more traditional methods. This is on top of all the prototyping and rewriting the parts of the engine they did replace.

I’ve been a huge critic of the game, so I get where you’re coming from. I just think the criticism should be done with the proper context in mind.

[AtticusFincher]

@nrXic

Unless I misunderstanding, that looks pretty accurate. Paint has a clear coat on it and as a result ambient lighting like the sky will be far more visible. All light will hit two surfaces the clear coat and then the paint underneath. With vinyl all light hits the vinyl and that’s it.

Though it is confusing because that clear coat should have a pronounced reflection and we’re not seeing that.

You’re right. I think it comes down to the accurate lighting just not being flattering in some cases.

It’s washed out in real life too!

A higher RT resolution/more rays traced might clean up some imperfections but what are you gonna do, it’s a video game made to a certain spec level. There’s a give and a take there.

[FacelessSamurai]

I’ve encountered a few bugs, like textures getting all weird on cars and track once or twice or AI cars completely stopping after doing a rewind, which I can understand some might find frustrating. But beyond that the game is flawless for me, the driving feels insanely good even though I have to admit I suck at simulation games but I do enjoy the challenge and I remove most assists to force myself to learn as much as possible.

Graphically I find it hard to say anything negative to be honest, I’ve played all FM since 5 and this is definitely the best looking! They’ve overhauled the lighting for sure as the game gives a very different visual vibe compared to the previous titles. There are times where I’m almost tricked it’s actually live footage! All that while offering 3 graphical settings and performance ray tracing being a perfect balance of visuals and performance. I do wish they’d have a 1080p/120fps mode, with ray tracing if possible, although I wonder here if the CPU is actually the real bottleneck here.

Content wise I can’t say yet as I still have a lot to go through, but it seems there is enough there in terms of single player content to play a few dozen hours or so, so plenty imo and then consider the game will be updated throughout the Gen and I feel like I’ll get my money’s worth.

I’m guessing the overhaul of the game took a chunk of their time and so while some might be a bit disappointed initially, it was probably for the best as I’m sure it’ll help with development of their future titles. I look at how rough Halo Infinite was and how quick content is coming out now and it was all building towards this and with FM, while the launch wasn’t as roughy, I think it’s building towards bringing us more in a similar fashion.

[Zappy5]

@AtticusFincher

You’re right. I think it comes down to the accurate lighting just not being flattering in some cases.

It’s washed out in real life too!

A higher RT resolution/more rays traced might clean up some imperfections but what are you gonna do, it’s a video game made to a certain spec level. There’s a give a take there.

This is what I’m trying to say. Turn 10 have abandoned the hyper real look. People can’t get their heads around it. Which is a shame. As someone who dabbles in car detailing a lot of the things people expect simply aren’t accurate to the lighting present.

But there is also the issue of lower poly and detail car models in the mix.

[Bleedorang3]

Forza Motorsport is such a weird game graphically. Races at night in the rain look like some of the most insane graphics I’ve ever seen, but during the day in full sunlight all contrast VANISHES and everything looks washed out and overly matte to the point where it suddenly looks like a late Xbox 360 game just at a way higher resolution (this is hyperbole, but the difference between how good FM can look and how bad it can look is VAST).

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to Forza Motorsport graphically. I’ll leave that to the FM team to fix over time. What I am concerned about is the quality of Xbox’s PC ports. They REALLY need to figure something out here. They’re on a dangerous trend of neglecting the technical quality of their PC releases and gamers are starting to take notice.