Well u were talking about the court case lol, now you introduce all this new stuff. Try and keep in the context you laid out.
No…I said they were making absurd claims and when you claimed that I was ‘making it up’ I gave you a court case to demonstrate that they are in fact making such claims. You can watch that presser to see it too. The claims are made not because they believe them, but because they want to muddy the waters enough politically for GOP legislators to take the steps to override he election in their states. They have no illusions about winning these court cases.
You never said anything about conspiracies to me. Anyway it does not some how negate what I said about there reason being “illegitimate” votes
You cant quote a court case to try proove your point and then dismiss it when it says something you dont like.
And you are making up the “trump is trying to steal the election” there is no evidence proving this.
The court case you provided does not prove your opinion at all. Its just a court case of trump trying prove there are illegitimate votes, which failed, this is not evidence of election theft attempt.
What? I quoted their legal brief wrt their plan being to overturn the election already. I pointed you to Trump’s own legal team publicly declaring wild conspiracy theories at their press conferences. It is crystal clear to everyone who follows politics that Trump is trying, and failing, to steal the election by tryna get legislatures to award him their state electors. I cannot imagine how someone can engage on good faith in a discussion about it and then conclude otherwise. It’s just not possible.
If ya aren’t interested in good faith discussion, this ain’t the thread for you.
I was already ready to throw your opinions out the window when you started your argument with a ridiculous both-sidesist rant about Democrats being crooks too (as you like to say, then ignore, show me some proof), but your whole rant is asinine. I’m not sure if you’re being genuine in refusing to have a good-faith discussion by ignoring all the sources provide that clearly prove everyone else’s points, or you’re simply trolling because you have nothing better to do. I’m absolutely with @TavishHill again on this one; you’ve been provided dozens of sources to refute your perspective and refuse to give any ground. I could spend days combing through my 5000+ articles saved over these last four years, as a gov employee, to show how disastrous Trump and his regime have been to millions, and this country as a whole (and thanks to his abhorrent COVID response, the entire world).
Just on his attempts to steal the election alone, we’ve seen him attempting to undermine the election for months and since he lost, he and his cronies have been calling SoS’s to convince them not to certify election ballots only in states he’s lost, he’s invited sate-level legislatures to the White House in order to prevent certification (an unprecedented and constitutionally dangerous/illegal maneuver), and has been calling individual county-level canvassing board members… all of this is not normal, and if this were any other country the US would be sending in troops to ensure the “will of the people” was kept. If you can’t see, or won’t see, the dangerous game Trump is undeniably playing to attempt to steal the election and avoid criminal charges from his numerous investigations by the SDNY… well you might be blind my friend.
BTW, as a member of the scientific community, if all we looked at was his COVID response, most countries would treat his actions as treason, or at least criminal negligence. His party is just as guilty and last time I damn-well checked there were over 400 bills passed by the democrats in the House, including over a dozen economic relief bills for the middle/average-working class that McConnell and the Republicans refuse to even bring to a damn vote in Senate. So please, either educate yourself or spare me your both sides bullshit.
As someone who’s had friends die and lose their jobs because of COVID and the absolutely piss-poor, inhuman, negligent response by the GOP/Trump, I refuse to see someone make excuses for a seditious criminal like Trump.
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Years, actually. His entire impeachment was centered on his effort to use extortion to force Ukraine to interfere in the election on his behalf. He has tried everything imaginable from pulling in foreign interference personally, to sowing doubt about the process in public, to tryna defund USPS during a pandemic for election purposes, to installing new USPS board of Directors and Postmaster General who then started dismantling USPS’s sorting machines, to getting his DoJ involved in phony investigations, to misleading voters about how and when they can vote, to tryna boot voters from the rolls, telling his own voters to commit voter fraud by voting twice, disinformation campaigns, threats to use the military and/or law enforcement and/or terrorist militias to harass and intimidate voters…all before we even got to Nov 3rd or the catastrophic desperation he has exhibited since then.
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Oh I agree, I’m simply talking about the massive ramp up post-impeachment. And I didn’t even mention his orders to DeJoy to dismantle the USPS’s abilities as people began mailing in ballot-requests. That alone should be cause for criminal investigations after this is over, because there are plenty (myself included) who receive medications in the damn mail… I could go on.
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Good faith discussion? When you cant accept facts and reality its pointless to discuss things with you. You can keep on saying trump is trying to steal the election and provide sources which dont prove this but this attempt to distort reality to fit your opinion is not working.
Take a breath, relax and try and not make this to a Trump vs biden or left vs right debate. You dont even know my thoughts on trumps covid response and yet you are already using it as a vector of attack. Take a breath.
You are demonstrating an astonishing level of cognitive dissonance here. YOU were given facts that you refuse to accept. You didn’t give me any facts at all! The sources I gave you demonstrate conclusively that Trump is in fact, objectively and indisputably, trying to steal the election away from voters and instead have GOP legislators hand him the presidency. This is his legal strategy. His team does not actually imagine there is rampant voter fraud to the extent needed to overturn any of these states or that there is any hope at all of him ending up winning on votes. The point of the court cases isn’t to demonstrate any fraud. It’s to create enough smoke that GOP legislators have coverage for helping Trump steal the presidency.
YOU were the one who Kramer’d into the thread 2 months late with that off topic rant about comparing Biden and Trump! Let’s take a trip down memory lane to see how you entered this thread:
^^^THIS is bad faith nonsense. I’m sorry that you can’t bring yourself to admit that you’re wrong and hat Trump is literally trying to steal the election away from voters and let his GOP allies give it to him by fiat. Ya were given court docs showing you that his legal team is directly asking for this. Ya were given news stories about Trump bringing those GOP lawmakers to the WH to try talking them into it. This is long past speculation. It’s fact. Everyone who follows American politics across the spectrum understand it.
It’s fine if you don’t follow politics and if this is all new to you and UNDERSTANDABLE to think it sounds too crazy to be true! And yet, it is true. And indisputable. And citizens who respect the Constitution and centuries of civil governing norms should absolutely respond to this news with alarm and disgust.
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If my topic was off topic why did you reply to it?why escalate off topic discussion…
I explained why the court case you provided does not prove what you are saying but you just flat out ignore those points, that is bad faith discussion. That court case is an attempt by trump of trying to prevent an illegitimate democrat victory that is there proposal, people are entitled to think its actually trump trying to steal the election but the court case does not prove is this.
What on earth are you talking about?! I replied to explain to you what the actual thread topic is about since you are so confused about it. And yet here you are, trashing someone else for supposedly being off topic…
And you didn’t explain any such thing. What bizarro world do you live in here?! o.0
You were confused about how POTUS is chosen and I had to explain TO YOU how the process works and why asking GOP to pick the president was problematic. Asking GOP electors to bypass the voters is quite literally stealing the election from the voters.
Your argument was that GOP isn’t stealing the election since they have legitimate voter fraud cases…except they don’t have any such cases (literally zero) which is why every time they get in front of a judge they are forced to admit that fact and they get laughed out into the street. Over and over. Literally dozens of times since Nov 3rd. The GOP knows they have no actual case because they know they have no actual evidence. Let alone evidence to overturn 80k vote deficit in PA or 157k deficit in MI, etc.
These are statistical impossibilities. The fact you are clinging to that fictional tale of rampant, multi-million voter fraud against all odds tells me you aren’t interested in good faith discussion and just want to defend Trump’s effort to steal the election.
Don’ be like Trump. Take the L and move on.
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I dont think what I said originally was off topic, its pretty relevant to the conversation, but that other poster brought other topics into it which turns the thing into a more trump vs biden debate without even knowing my stance on trumps covid policy. At this point you are trying to attack me on anything you can, it seems an actual discussion is not your intention.
Yeah there ones curcial point your missing out which completely destroys your argument, the court case asked GOP electors to make a decision IF the judge found
“violations of the United States Constitution and violations of other federal and state election laws”
if if this was established they would be guilty, weather on not the GOP were biased or not would depend on what violations the defendants were guilty of. For example if it was found that the democrats did do a minor violation like a election worker didnt sign in correctly, and the GOP gave the state to trump because of this even though biden got more legitimate votes then I agree that would be election theft, but if the findings were 100000 illegitimate votes in bidens favour and the GOP gave the state to trump then it would not be biased or an attempt to steal the election.
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Your original reply was whining about Democrats and had nothing at all to do with the thread topic. This thread is not about Dems vs GOP. It’s about Trump’s plans (and actions) to steal the election. This is not the venue for debating unrelated policy merits nor platforms. Your reply was made prior to the other person’s comment so you don’t get to try and twist the timeline to fit some feeble defense.
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No, Trump did not wait on judges before asking GOP legislators from swing states to meet with him. He also did not wait on judges before having GOP lawyers discuss strategies for stealing the election from voters (this was done at least as early as August).
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Your framing is comical. Their claim all along was rampant voter fraud should be an excuse to throw out the whole election and steal it from voters. Just because they reiterate their claim does not magically make heir intentions different. They are not interested in voter fraud or election integrity. If they were, they would not only be taking issue in states that Trump lost. Trump openly asked Russia to interfere in the 2016 election and he directly demanded Ukraine do the same in this election. He has told his own voters to vote twice en masse. He trotted out a woman in Nevada who claimed the poll workers didn’t let her vote, when in reality she already HAD voted (aka she was tryna commit voter fraud to cast two votes for Trump). The GOP set up hotlines soliciting any ‘voter fraud’ claims they could muster from strangers without even checking into the veracity of the claims.
Trump has zero interest in the integrity of the election or rooting out actual voter fraud. I should not need to explain this. This has been common, public knowledge that is indisputable for years now, even before the stuff leading into and during and after this election. Your whole shtick here relies wholly on this naive notion that ‘golly gee they just care a lot about election integrity and wanna do the right thing!’. It is hard to express how naive that is without coming off like I am attacking you.
If the campaign had any good faith evidence to back up their claims, they’d produce that evidence (they have not) and maybe not be laughed out of court 34 times since Nov 3rd. Reminder: They did not wait to make these claims only post-election. They have been beating this drum for the past 6 months about mail in voting = voter fraud and we shouldn’t count mail in votes. This IS their strategy and ALWAYS WAS their strategy.
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There you go again ignoring my specific points and examples about 326, whats even the point in this if you ignore my points?
Point is you may think trump is trying to steal the election, but its not a fact trump is trying to steal the election.
I directly addressed your point about that paragraph.
It is a fact that Trump has no evidence of any voter fraud, let alone rampant voter fraud at the scale needed to change the results even in a single state. We know this because judges have asked for such evidence and none was produced. The case I cited earlier (the same one you are referring to wrt the court doc from Trump’s legal team) was thrown out BECAUSE there was no evidence whatsoever to back up the proclamations of voter fraud.
So yes, it is actually a FACT that Trump asked the judge to overturn the whole election in PA, to throw out all those millions of votes, and to let the GOP legislature give Trump the state’s electors based on literally no evidence.
READ: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/21/politics/pennsylvania-trump-lawsuit-dismissal/index.html
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No you dont, you just go on several tangents. I dont think you understand my point. My point is suspicions or liklihoods are different to confirmed or proven facts. To your likley surprise I think Trump is absolutely caperble of stealing an election, my point is that I dont know for certain and neither do you. If there is irrefutable proof of Trump trying to steal the election surely the democrats would take legal action immediately and as there is irrefutable proof it would be an easy win for them, the problem is they arent, because there isnt irefutable proof.
I didn’t go on any tangents. I listed the ever-increasing list of steps Trump has taken to steal the election in response to your supposition that his legal argument is being made as a good faith effort to protect election integrity. Those are not tangents, they are explicit repudiations of such a naive claim. Read the judge’s dismissal. He literally cites bad faith as one of the reasons to throw the suit out.
It is not speculation that they have no evidence to support their claims of voter fraud. They were asked over and over for such evidence in court. They provided none. And the Dems have taken legal action. Their legal teams have been intervening in these cases since Nov 3rd (and before).
This is what a judge in GA said:
And in the PA case we were discussing:
If they had any evidence at all, they would have presented it when asked in court. They did not do that. Therefore, we KNOW for sure that their claims are false and thus their intention is to steal the election. I dunno how to be more clear.
Btw, this is someone who up until today worked for Trump’s legal team. She is a Qanon loon who got fired today because of the public damage she was causing the legal team, but her statement here is crystal clear and 100% reflective of what the legal team has asked in court and what they are discussing with GOP lawmakers behind the scenes:
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He doesn’t have the power needed to stay in office beyond his term. He would need the military in his pocket for that to even be a possibility. I mean, he couldn’t even get a wall built, how does anyone seriously think he has any real power?
“He” doesn’t, but more than Trump, what happens when someone more charismatic comes through and tries these shenanigans more subtly while still stirring that hyper aggressive, far right base into a violence prone frenzy with a complacent congress (like we’ve had with the Republican Senate) that will not hold the position to account and also allow that position to violate the constitution (like the recent Republican Senate did).
The current tyrant was tripped up on his race to a hyper partisan Supreme Court. What happens when the next is more successful in subverting the balance of the three “co-equal” branches of government? Particularly if the Republicans hold power in the House, Senate and White House while those hyper partisan Court judges are still on the bench.
More than the current threat, the foundations of the balance of power have been completely eroded and unless the next administration puts hard laws in place to prevent a recurrence, the US government is not far from falling to dictatorship.
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