Xbox Wire: Xbox Series X|S are the only next gen consoles to have full RDNA2

[TavishHill]

@The_Xboxer

He never said hardware based Ray Tracing himself word for word. Lol. But acceleration in the gpu. That’s why technically he is not wrong but playing with words again but I can bet you anything PS5 has not dedicated RT cores.

For information if I’m not mistaken intersection engine is an algorithm not hardware thing it is software. Even the XSX has it afaik.

He said there is RT hardware present. And Sony has company-internal docs confirming it too. It’s hw RT.

[The_Xboxer (Adam)]

@TavishHill

He said there is RT hardware present. And Sony has company-internal docs confirming it too. It’s hw RT.

Can you bring the sources please. I want to read it. Thanks! What I want is the proof of HW RT with dedicated cores in PS5. That’s what I’m talking about.

[Dom]

Looks like we are already seeing the power difference, Valhalla is 4K native on XSX and upscaled 4K on PS5

[TavishHill]

@The_Xboxer

Can you bring the sources please. I want to read it. Thanks!

I’d have to go dig it up. It was linked in some YT vid I watched months ago. We have seen RT on PS5. It’s running on hw, not software-based. I dunno why anyone would think otherwise.

[The_Xboxer (Adam)]

@TavishHill

I’d have to go dig it up. It was linked in some YT vid I watched months ago. We have seen RT on PS5. It’s running on hw, not software-based. I dunno why anyone would think otherwise.

I edited my sentence above to give more nuance. Please read it. Thanks. I will wait.

[Colbert]

@TavishHill

… Those aren’t all RDNA2 features. There is a distinction to be made bt RDNA2 features (i.e. features ya gotta have to be considered full RDNA2 spec) and other tech that just happens to be in the cards AMD just announced (DX12U features aren’t RDNA2 features, and some 6000 Series features are unique to those cards like Infinity Cache). Also, Sony didn’t “replace” mesh shaders with primitive shaders. Mesh shaders replace the whole geometry pipeline. Sony updated the existing GE in AMD’s tech to be more programmable (still less so than mesh shaders iirc). They likely used GE and tweaked it because mesh shaders for AMD were not quite ready yet (as they likely relied on MS/DX team’s timeline there). Same with SF; the PS5 has nothing similar to that as far as we know.

a) below slides show the RDNA 2 feature set

b) int4 & int8 are mentioned in the RDNA white paper as to be part of RDNA. If RDNA2 is an evolution of RDNA1 I assume that capability as a feature of RDNA2 too

c) my wording with the “Primitive shader” was a bit off, I give you that. I actually meant their Geometry Engine is based on Primitive Shaders instead of Mesh Shaders.

[LucasTaves]

722: Xbox Series X|S RDNA 2 and Game Bar

[TavishHill]

@Colbert

a) below slides show the RDNA 2 feature set

b) int4 & int8 are mentioned in the RDNA white paper as to be part of RDNA. If RDNA2 is an evolution of RDNA1 I assume that capability as a feature of RDNA2 too

c) my wording with the “Primitive shader” was a bit off, I give you that. I actually meant their Geometry Engine is based on Primitive Shaders instead of Mesh Shaders.

a) Those are the advanced features, not the base features for RDNA2, shown earlier this year in AMD’s slides/presentations internally.

b) If they were part of the microarchitecture AMD offered the console makers, MS would have not needed to request INT support be added in:

[Colbert]

@TavishHill

a) Those are the advanced features, not the base features for RDNA2, shown earlier this year in AMD’s slides/presentations internally.

Yeah the int8 & int4 stuff could be really a MS customizing. But again it shows up in the public RDNA white paper. Isn’t that a weird thing!?

P.S. An advanced feature is still a feature, right?

P.P.S. Jason Ronald himself listed RDNA2 features as RT, VRS, Mesh Shader and Sampler Feedback.

[TavishHill]

@Colbert

Yeah the int8 & int4 stuff could be really a MS customizing. But again it shows up in the public RDNA white paper. Isn’t that a weird thing!?

P.S. An advanced feature is still a feature, right?

P.P.S. Jason Ronald himself listed RDNA2 features as RT, VRS, Mesh Shader and Sampler Feedback.

Yeah it is strange.

I think advanced feature is a feature, but we should distinguish between baseline features and advanced features. The reason I push this point is that we know PS5 lacks 1 RDNA2 feature, and it were missing some advanced feature we would still all agree it was full RDNA2 spec. But that isn’t the case.

Also, conflating the features can mislead ppl into presuming everything shown at the AMD conference is also part of XSX, when we know that ain’t the case (Infinity cache, for example). It can lead folks to think XSX has every single feature noted in any context at the show and to presume PS5 lacks most of that stuff, when that isn’t always the case.

Jason Ronald said RDNA2 was about performance and fidelity and efficiency but that it “also includes brand new features” and then listed what you mentioned. That is not baseline features (he noted 2 that overlap and are both there in hw as part of RDNA2 but exposed via DX12U as a feature there). Notice that he says “XSX/XSS has full hardware support for the full set of RDNA2 capabilities”. That means stuff beyond XSX/XSS are not RDNA2-specific.

[Colbert]

@TavishHill

Yeah it is strange.

I think advanced feature is a feature, but we should distinguish between baseline features and advanced features. The reason I push this point is that we know PS5 lacks 1 RDNA2 feature, and it were missing some advanced feature we would still all agree it was full RDNA2 spec. But that isn’t the case.

Also, conflating the features can mislead ppl into presuming everything shown at the AMD conference is also part of XSX, when we know that ain’t the case (Infinity cache, for example). It can lead folks to think XSX has every single feature noted in any context at the show and to presume PS5 lacks most of that stuff, when that isn’t always the case.

Infinity cache is a technology used on the silicon to mitigate memory access bottlenecks.

A feature in the meaning we talk about are capabilities that can be used by devs. Infinity cache is transparent to programmers just like the transistors that accelerate RT or other fixed function HW.

[Colbert]

@Colbert

Infinity cache is a technology used on the silicon to mitigate memory access bottlenecks.

A feature in the meaning we talk about are capabilities that can be used by devs. Infinity cache is transparent to programmers just like the transistors that accelerate RT or other fixed function HW.

P.S. I don’t understand why you want to artificially differentiate between “baseline features and advanced features”. XSX Supports all baseline and advanced features. So why do we need the differentiation? Is it because PS5 misses only 1 baseline feature but several advanced features?

[TavishHill]

@Colbert

Infinity cache is a technology used on the silicon to mitigate memory access bottlenecks.

A feature in the meaning we talk about are capabilities that can be used by devs. Infinity cache is transparent to programmers just like the transistors that accelerate RT or other fixed function HW.

Fair enough. Still, we should not confuse AMD GPU features with RDNA2 base features. Especially when AMD themselves cites certain things as ‘advanced features’.

[TavishHill]

@Colbert

P.S. I don’t understand why you want to artificially differentiate between “baseline features and advanced features”. XSX Supports all baseline and advanced features. So why do we need the differentiation? Is it because PS5 misses only 1 baseline feature but several advanced features?

Because the thread is premised on what distinguishes XSX/XSS from other platforms. In that context, the distinction I am making allows us to learn more about PS5 too, thus fostering more discussion around what is or is not present in the machines being compared in the XboxWire article.

[The_Xboxer (Adam)]

@TavishHill

… Also, conflating the features can mislead ppl into presuming everything shown at the AMD conference is also part of XSX, when we know that ain’t the case (Infinity cache, for example). It can lead folks to think XSX has every single feature noted in any context at the show and to presume PS5 lacks most of that stuff, when that isn’t always the case. Jason Ronald said RDNA2 was about performance and fidelity and efficiency but that it “also includes brand new features” and then listed what you mentioned. That is not baseline features (he noted 2 that overlap and are both there in hw as part of RDNA2 but exposed via DX12U as a feature there). Notice that he says “XSX/XSS has full hardware support for the full set of RDNA2 capabilities”. That means stuff beyond XSX/XSS are not RDNA2-specific.

“With the upcoming launch of the Xbox Series X|S on November 10, together we are ushering in the next generation of gaming delivering a level of power, performance and compatibility never before seen in console gaming, powered by AMD’s latest “Zen 2” and RDNA 2 architectures. Xbox Series X|S are the only next-generation consoles with full hardware support for all the RDNA 2 capabilities AMD showcased today.”

A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture...

[Colbert]

@TavishHill

Fair enough. Still, we should not confuse AMD GPU features with RDNA2 base features. Especially when AMD themselves cites certain things as ‘advanced features’.

(at least now I understand where you coming from. Took me a while to be honest)

At the moment the RX 6000 series GPUs are the only RDNA2 representatives in the PC space. The emphasis why MS is saying they share all those features is that games on PC that uses those feature are supported on console too and vice versa. That is the whole point.So RX 6800 features (the current RDNA2 GPU feature set) are all supported on Xbox Series consoles too.

[TavishHill]

@Colbert

(at least now I understand where you coming from. Took me a while to be honest)

At the moment the RX 6000 series GPUs are the only RDNA2 representatives in the PC space. The emphasis why MS is saying they share all those features is that games on PC that uses those feature are supported on console too and vice versa. That is the whole point.So RX 6800 features (RDNA2 GPU feature set) are all supported on Xbox Series consoles too.

AMD and MS led to lots of ppl conflating the feature sets. Sony for their part didn’t help by being coy about stuff like VRS. Sorry I was not clearer before!

[Colbert]

@TavishHill

Because the thread is premised on what distinguishes XSX/XSS from other platforms. In that context, the distinction I am making allows us to learn more about PS5 too, thus fostering more discussion around what is or is not present in the machines being compared in the XboxWire article.

When it comes to PS5, the PS5 must be also compared to what is on the market on PC and the features presented by the RX 6000 GPUs. It actually doesn’t matter for a dev if it is baseline or advanced. What matters is the same thing there or not. And from that perspective, if a dev supports the RX 6000 feature set, there are features not present or different on the PS5 which we already agreed on (VRS, Mesh Shader and Sampler Feedback).

I do not see an issue to say it that way because it is factual.

(I don’t think it was a problem on your end and a need to be clearer, we just came from different angles and as you know, usually you can miss the other angle in a fast paced discussion)

[TavishHill]

@The_Xboxer

Not sure you are following my point here. My point is that there are baseline features GPU’s need to have to be classified as ‘full RDNA2’. Those are RT, perf/watt improvements over GCN, and VRS. They also support the DX12U features showcased too. The point is that if we are careful with what feature is DX vs RDNA2, we can learn more about PS5’s missing RDNA2 feature.

[TavishHill]

@Colbert

When it comes to PS5, the PS5 must be also compared to what is on the market on PC and the features presented by the RX 6000 GPUs. It actually doesn’t matter for a dev if it is baseline or advanced. What matters is the same thing there or not. And from that perspective, if a dev supports the RX 6000 feature set, there are features not present or different on the PS5 which we already agreed on (VRS, Mesh Shader and Sampler Feedback).

I do not see an issue to say it that way because it is factual.

(I don’t think it was a problem on your end and a need to be clearer, we just came from different angles and as you know, usually you can miss the other angle in a fast paced discussion)

You say it doesn’t matter if a feature is labeled as base or advanced, but it DOES matter if the context is to use that label to discern if the feature is present and available for use. My point is that we can learn about what is present or missing if we are careful with the labeled feature sets. By focusing too much on the Xbox end of things here, you miss out on learning more info regarding what RDNA2 feature Rosario was referring to.

Yes, we can be sloppy and just say ‘XSX has all this stuff, yay!’, but being more careful lets the discussion yield more fruit than that!