We need to talk about that Square-Enix relationship with Xbox

Just to be clear that install base point was in regards to the size of the moneyhat. Because the userbase is so small, it’s easier to moneyhat to offset lost sales on that platform. If the Xbox was a bigger platform, then Sony would have to cough up more money for exclusivity.

On the other point, we did see it with Western published titles like Deathloop and Ghostwrite: Tokyo. Apparently Sony also tried doing this with Starfield as well.

So if Zenimax could be swayed by multiple moneyhats, I’m less inclined to believe that Square Enix is doing Sony a special favour and are just being well-compensated. But as others have pointed out, there are other factors related to their relationship that may indicate that SE are doing them special favours.

My point is that the more successful Xbox is, the less often this will happen because these publishers won’t want to miss the Xbox userbase if it’s offering similar sales to the PlayStation userbase.

Personally this whole thing cements the idea of how some gamers are being hypocritical when they don’t want Microsoft to make Bethesda games exclusive. None of these folks are talking crying foul in regards to Square Enix.

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Some of you really think its just Square Enix playing foul and not just a financially motivated transaction. Not everything is an anti xbox conspiracy.

Nobody here thinks “everything is an anti-xbox conspiracy”, I’ve seen you post in bad faith in the past and it’d be nice if you could dial the ad hominem and strawman arguments back a touch if you have nothing further to contribute.

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While “anti xbox conspiracy” is not a great way to put it, what are you thinking it is if not a purely financial decision? What are the other options?

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That could be true. Was FF15 the first FF to launch simultaneously on both PS and Xbox? Maybe they experimented with it, saw poor sales, and now we are where we are?

Final Fantasy 13, and it’s sequels did also. As stated, sales aren’t the only factor with Game Pass money being guaranteed and, don’t forget, Sony exclusivity has also affected PC - which has traditionally posted solid numbers for the genre.

Nobody here thinks it’s a sentiment against Xbox, clearly the fact PC also loses out completely negates that, but there’s something more at play than merely a straight business decision because AAA third party games going platform exclusive is not the state of the market.

I’ll make a bigger post on it when I’m done with work, looking at the history of moneyhatted AAA exclusives (a good, though not perfectly similar example would be Street Fighter V) and why these “deals” don’t exist anymore, not for lack of Sony’s trying.

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I just think Square Enix like any financially motivated business notices they still sell about the same amount on xbox irrelevant of when the game drops and just take the upfront money for Sony because thats where the core of their sales come from which makes up for any projected xbox revenue first year.

Simply Sony overpays to lock them down cause they need these big brands to be associated with Playstation in some way. Kingdom Hearts already is full multiplatform it seems so might as well lock down FF and Any Square JRPG’s for some time.

Like if Sony comes in and says Ill pay for exclusivity window and some dev costs who are Square Enix to say no?

  1. The games are exclusive from PC because for Sony it is about making people buy a PS5 to play it, not specifically to keep it off Xbox.

  2. I agree with this POV but others do not. You can apply the same argument for Bethesda games being exclusive to Xbox in the future. The counter to this is: If Bethesda games being exclusive to the Xbox makes more money overall than Bethesda games being multiplat, then SE games being exclusive to Playstation would be the same. Even more so for Sony since Sony doesn’t have any of the costs of ownership.

  3. Oh I definitely believe Sony would moneyhat a game off the PS4. Back when the PS3 came out Sony hated that people were supporting the PS2 more. They want people to transition over to the PS5 asap. All of the marketing, we believe in generations, who would play this old crap, PS4 versions don’t exist until they suddenly do. They may be forced to support the PS4 with some of their 1st party, but they won’t get any flack for shutting out the PS4 if it’s a (undisclosed) deal with a 3rd party. In fact it is the perfect way to abandon the PS4 without looking like they are doing it.

  4. This may simply be because Sony wants to hold on to the JRPG association with Playstation more than anything else. They may not have the budget to moneyhat more or simply don’t see the benefit to it with other AAA games.

Keep in mind the cost to buy exclusivity isn’t a straight conversion of potential lost sales on other platforms, the time value of money counts also. That is, upfront money in my pocket today is worth more than non-guaranteed money from the future.

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I don’t think we can compare Game Pass money with timed exclusive money though, unless its a day-and-date Game Pass release. One is up front money and the other is extra money at the tail end.

If Game Pass is a factor in these deals, it is more likely a negative one. Square can take advantage of both the Sony and Ms money.

  1. That argument rings hollow. Not a single extra PS5 will be purchased in the exclusivity window, the console is sold out and will continue to sell out well into 2022. This was projected by Sony before the console even went on the market. I think more you have the right of it with brand association, but it’s not about shifting more consoles because such a thing won’t happen.

  2. The argument can certainly be applied to Bethesda, the brand will weaken by being Xbox family exclusive however it’s in a different boat because it’s a first party. It has an entirely different floor and ceiling of expectation when compared to a third party IP, particularly one associated with being multiplatform.

  3. Sony are developing their games for PS4 themselves. That believing in generations bunk was just Jim lyin Ryan at it again. Further, it puts an end to the argument that it’s just business for SE - the PS4 has the largest install base in gaming and the fall out from not supporting it (not even a year after FFVIIR was released) caused SE stock to plummet after the announcement.

  4. As I said, think you have the right of it in terms of Sony’s intentions here, but I’ll post a little more on this later. What we do know, however, is Sony approached a myriad of publishers seeking timed exclusivity on AAA games, but were rebuffed by all but one.

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  1. It’s not necessarily about selling consoles right now, it’s about creating hype and demand. It’s about having the “hottest toy” for Christmas. Consoles being sold out, scalpers, consoles going for $1000, etc… create an image that persists into the future. Exclusivity is a marketing tool not a direct money making one. Yes the game not being on Xbox or PC is part of this.

  2. I do agree SE hurts themselves and their IP overall with exclusivity deals, but they very well may be risk adverse. They simply don’t have confidence in their IP and would rather take up front money and essentially guaranteed profits.

  3. I’m saying Sony is still making games for the PS4 because they have to otherwise they would face a backlash. However with these exclusive deals they are making they can abandon the PS4 and push the PS5 without being the bad guy. Sony paying to keep the game off the PS4 is something I believe they would do, so SE is getting paid for the missing PS4 version just like the Xbox and PC. That said there very well might be a PS4 version that can’t be revealed yet which is something Sony also does.

  1. Feels like we’re going round in circles a bit here, but I largely agree with you. It’s not necessarily about sales but presenting an imagine. For the record, it’s easy to see why Sony is doing it - it works and, for whatever reason, they never catch half the flack MS do when similar occurs on the other side.

Back when MS moneyhatted 11 months of exclusivity on Tomb Raider, even the Xbox media was up in arms. Ryan McCaffery, IGNs local Xbox fanboy, called it disgusting and floated the idea of Xbox fans waiting the 11 months in solidarity with the poor, third person adventure game starved PS4 gamers. That’s not even to talk of noise made by said gamers themselves.

Now? Barely a slap on the wrists, even though it’s several (previously multiplatform AAA) games for much longer periods of exclusivity.

  1. They don’t have confidence in Final Fantasy? That’s absolutely ridiculous. It’s their biggest property, even it’s objectively awful installments, it’s double and triple dips and it’s obscure merchandising sell absolute gangbusters.

The numbers on PC, Xbox and yes, Switch too, back this up - the series is successful and has been even when other JRPGs floundered and died. Why do you think MS devoted their own resources to enhance the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy for One X? Or have paid for the entire series so far to release on Game Pass? It’s not because it’s unpopular.

  1. Now that’s getting into the realms of conspiracy theory. In any case, I think it’s safe to say that SE is losing on these deals. How do we, as consumers, show distain towards such practices and being treated as second or third class? All we can do is stop supporting such practices and encouraging it to continue. On that, I hope, we can agree.
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I know Gamstat numbers are disputed, by they claim the following number of players, not sales (+/- 10%). Not exactly sure how they factor in Game Pass, but for a lot of titles you can see the effect of many more players on Xbox than PS, e.g. Wasteland 3. Anyway, they say:

FF XV - 8.1 mio (PS4), 3.5 mio. (XOne) FF VII R - 4.6 mio (PS4)

The legacy FF games have all done pretty well on Xbox bar XII given their late release. World of Final Fantasy did poorly. NieR Automata has 1.5 mio. on Xbox One and 3.9 mio. on PS4. Not so bad given the late release. Kingdom Hearts III did pretty damn good, too. There‘s definitely potential for Square-Enix games on Xbox. I don‘t think late ports will reach similair numbers though. The smaller S-E games sometimes haven‘t even done so hot on PS4, including The Last Remnant. Interestingly, the site also claims that games like Star Ocean 4 and The Last Remnant back in the day did quite well on Xbox 360 with about a million sales. Seems Square doesn‘t think that way though.

Turning to others publishers, SEGA’s Yakuza Zero also has done pretty good according to the site, with almost a million players on Xbox. Valkyria Chronicles 4 bombed though. Souls games did well as did Capcom titles like Devil May Cry or Monster Hunter World. No reliable numbers for Dragon Quest XI S yet (the figures are from November 2020).

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Regarding not having confidence in FF, I don’t mean in that context exactly. What I mean is they may not have enough confidence in it to turn down a briefcase full of cash upfront. It’s one thing to know you have a money maker, it’s totally another to give up guaranteed money (also reduced expenses) because you are absolutely positive the product you have will make a ton more money. I think they way they’ve handled FF is proof more towards them not knowing what they are doing as opposed to something more conspiracy theory. I don’t think SE has handled FF very well at all.

Sure this is a bit in the realm of conspiracy theory, but I think Sony’s actions are in line here. All of the words and actions are “we want to abandon the PS4 and shift to the PS5” without actually saying it outright. Like I said PS4 versions could exist, they just don’t want you to know they exist.

As for not supporting the practice, that is easier said than done. If you buy the game on Xbox when it comes out you are supporting the practice by telling them you are okay with being an afterthought. If you don’t buy the game then they just take it as no fans were on the Xbox anyway.

Man it sucks. Project Athia, FF7R part 1 and 2, FF16. And i am sure the next Dragon quest will come to PS5 before Xbox too.

I’m gonna wait and see as to what happens with FF7R, as if that comes to Xbox at some point that makes me hopeful that even with timed exclusivity FF16 will come eventually as well. My concern atm is largely if FF exclusivity means Sony could moneyhat other things. Already seeing it with Project Athia, and I question if the next KH game (I think we’re getting a new one next year as Nomura has teased it), will be moneyhatted too alongside the next proper new Entry in the NieR franchises.

I was planning to get a PS5 at some point anyway, regardless of this, but how bleak the outlook for SE on Xbox looks will probably be what decides if I decide to expedite the purchase of a PS5 to 2022, or wait until a slim/Pro revision.

My current theory for why this is all happening tbh, honestly just largely comes down to install base and how much money Sony is offering for the price of the 2-3 million copies these games sell on Xbox, and I suppose the rationale from SE is, the money is worth it. What I wonder is mostly just, do these games eventually come to Xbox or they don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sony isn’t the one that’s stopping these games, but Square just purposely doesn’t port them until Phil comes knocking, and handing over a bag of cash for porting costs.

Like I think if you see a PC version of FF7R but no Xbox version this year I honestly would not be surprised, if it’s not so much Sony stopping them from doing it, as much as SE waiting for MS to come knocking on the door. I feel like if Sony either, 1) locked down another year of console exclusivity, or just made the game full exclusive to PS4/PS5 they would have screamed it from the rooftops during the last state of play. The lack of them doing that, plus having 2 games related to FF7R launching on mobile tells me that on some level SE has multiplatform ambitions with FF7.

Only time will tell I suppose, but until the Xbox install base gets too big to ignore, I expect this situation to continue unfortunately. This all just feels like the cost Microsoft is paying for having a not so stellar last gen with the Xbox One in terms of install base. If there’s one thing I’m optimistic about it’s all the other major Japanese developers/publishers supporting Xbox, between Capcom, Bamco, and From.

Japan’s government would block it. It’s not happening.

Hell, they didn’t even let Nintendo buy Namco.

That wasn’t the Japanese government. Nintendo and Namco couldn’t agree to terms as Nintendo didn’t want to be in Namco’s big arcade businesses and Namco took an offer from Bandai instead. Bandai was a much bigger concern than Nintendo was at the time in 2005 (They were still a huge toy company globally) and that merger was allowed.

I’ve said it in the acquisition thread but a lot of the issue with acquisitions in Japan is not the act. The LDP under Abe and Suga has been trying to convince a lot of western tech to invest in Japan over other Asian countries like Singapore and China. It’s that workplace cultures are very different and Microsoft might have to go deeper than the current policy of limited integration. With Square, you’d risk disrupting a very creator driven company who like to take their time with games and who don’t like to put dates on them. Like FF7 Remake was announced in 2015, rebooted several times and even changed developers. That’s the big risk in acquiring in Japan and why Western companies mostly stay out.

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I’m playing Bravely Default 2 right now on the Nintendo Switch, and it is amazing. However, you HAVE to play it on the Switch - there is literally no other version out there and that includes PS and PC. Square does what they do, and sometimes there is no real rhyme or reason to their actions. I think they have it predetermined that certain games are for certain platforms, and their actions and willingness to accept exclusivity deals as a result are influenced by those thoughts. FF is the kind of game that historically has terrible sales on the Xbox, and the money hat is easy - so why bother to try and grow out the user base? When there are no sales to be made elsewhere, then you may see them on Xbox but if FFVIIR isn’t announced in some capacity for Xbox by Summer, I’m going to assume it isn’t coming anytime soon. At least I have a Switch to play some of their awesome throwback games. There would have to be a major revision in the PS5 design for me to consider one.