Well instead of complaining, why dont you do better?
Iām not complaining. Iām just stating a fact.
If I had both games and could provide high quality captures, Iād be glad to show how I think the leap is more than described. Unfortunately relying on bullshots, compressed videos, and low bit rate gifs isnāt going to accurately portray what weāre seeing on screen when playing because a lot of detail is either lost or artificially inserted.
Just the shaders on the ground, buildings, and environment in TofD show how drastic the leap was, even through gifs you can tell that on the PS3, materials have no roughness or reflective properties, because of this and the fact that there is like only a couple of bounces of light on ps3 result in surfaces just looking like coloured textures.
Tim Sweeney briefly explains it at 5.40 here
Or to put it in even simpler terms its like drawning a leaf by just drawing its outline and then colouring it in. The artist who draws a leaf and accounts for lighting and shadowing is going to produce a far more realistic leaf and the visual gap between the first and 2nd leaf is always going larger then an even more realistic 3rd leaf drawing because of dimininishing returns.
Also you were not stating a fact, you were stating your opinion.
*Complaining
to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault
Im pretty sure finding something somone did horrible is complaining, if we go by the above definition.
Tim Sweeney should talk about tech only, itās exceptional as heās expected to be, but when he has begun to talk about whatās right and whatās wrong, man, he has been very hypocritical in his stances.
I saw this presentation years ago, but I didnāt remember how many things he got right for the future at the time (not Kinect, lmao).
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That is a great video, itās been a long time since Iāve seen it. What he says doesnāt really apply to our conversation here though. You point to when heās talking about orders of approximation but that doesnāt really cover how games have evolved since the PS1/Saturn/N64 days.
No itās not my opinion that showing low rez gifs do not accurately convey how a game looks, that is a fact. I also wasnāt complaining about you using gifs, I was just pointing out that using them to try and support a point about graphics is useless. Accept it or not, it is a fact. Donāt believe me, ask anyone from DF or a developer. Or better yet, please explain the improvements to the shaders, materials, resolution differences and more with just the gifs. Surely since gifs provide all the visual data we need, you can give us pixel counts, shadow resolution info, and such, right?
Just because you donāt agree with what Iām saying, thereās no need to take things to extremes. I didnāt say what you did was horrible, I was just pointing out the fact that it proves nothing.
That speech is also rather fortelling of Timās goals. He wants to create the oasis like ready player one. Its only a matter of time until fortnite starts adding more 2nd life or playstation home like features. The difference being it wont be so jank.
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It does not apply to our conversation? Why not? It basically explains why visuals are improving which is exactly what we are talking about. Iāve yet to hear your response to dimininishing returns or how the leap of from surfaces that are lit very simply and have no shadows, texture(rough or smooth) and reflections is the same improvement from a texture with these things to a texture that does a better job of these things.
Take the leather on nathan drake in uncharted 2, it jas little texture and no reflection of light, and then look at the leather in uncharted 4 on nathan, will PS5 leather improve, yes it will but not to the same extent. Ps4 leather still looks like leather, ps3 leather looks like a flat texture, this is why the jump cant be as big going into the PS5.
Its your opinion that it was a horrible way to get my point across. That is what you said. While I agree gifs are not the best method I would not say theybare horrible. And you saying its a horrible way is not constructive to the convo, if you think its so bad, fine, help out and show some better sources.
So Iām confused. First you argue that youāre only expressing about the progress āso farā but then keep using games that appear much later during a generation. So by what criteria are you really going with?
Also I donāt see the point in focusing on one element and extrapolating that it would apply to the entire scene.
Problem here is it seems like youāre mind is already made up for right now and how the future of this generation will pan out.
Edit:
If weāre throwing out your requirement of āso farā then I donāt see how the leap with Uncharted below is more than the leap with Hellblade. Should note that I hate using these types of examples because of bullshots, marketing materials, etc. donāt always accurate present the game, but this should still support my point.
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I dont know what games will do in the future but unless there is some advancement as big as PBR or material based shaders I cant see the visual leap being as impressive. So far rachet and returnal are showing the samllest visual leap for a long long time, so yes im basing my opinion on these games. The uncharted leather example was just an example that was fresh in my memory. If hellblade 2 comes out and has quixel megascans environments, HB2 trailer facial model quality and lumen lighting that would be an impressive visual leap but with the nature of diminishing returns I still dont think it will be as big of a leap of ps3 to ps4. The PS4 gen got quite good at simulating a lot of things, if you take a screenshot of a ps4 rock and ps5 rock, the PS4 rock will still look like a pretty good rock, yes there may be more rocks on the ps5 but I dont think that has the same impact of the quality of individual objects.
Also ask any game developer, they will say visual leaps will get smaller and smaller as the generations go on, it is just the nature of diminishing returns. However this is not necessarily a bad thing, as I point out in the OP there is plenty of other things to be excited about. I do think its important that this topic is discussed though so we can have a better understanding on what this generation will be like.
Youāre problem is youāre looking at rocks and jumping to the conclusions that ānope the leap isnāt as big!ā
Absolutely no one that analyzes video game graphics does that for good reason.
You also didnāt answer my question.
Yeah all im doing is looking at rocksā¦
Seriously, whats even the point in trying discuss things with you if your just going to misconstrue what im saying! Its not just looking at rocksā¦ Its the realism of surfaces and objects.
In the PS4 gen devs got quite good in creating realistic objects and surfaces and if devs have already done a good job in imitating the core visual elements of things like wood, marble, metal,mud etc there isnt very far to go at improving these things or its gets increasingly more expensive and difficult for dimininishing improvements.
You really need to stop getting so easily offended and taking things to extremes. Iām not misconstruing anything. As good as devs were at creating assets last gen there is still A LOT of room to advance. Iām just having some fun because youāre not interested in having a real conversation when you change criteria for your points, think gifs is a good point of reference and think material shaders on certain objects would speak for the entire scene.
You clearly donāt think weāll see similar improvements and I know we will.
So weāll just have to see how this generation will play out.
Donāt worry im not getting offended by you, thanks for your concern though and im not taking things to the extreme. If your not misconstruing then your mis understanding or haveing trouble replicating my point.
Ok , to make things easier for you the criteria is taking any ps4 game and any PS5 game reguardless of when they release my core point still stands.
My core point is dimininishing returns in visuals, but improvements in other areas i mentioned in the OP.
Oh donāt worry, Iām not misunderstanding anything.
Iāll be sure to reference this thread in a few years. Should be fun lol
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It will, im excited to see what devs will do. im personally more excited for the ramifications gameplay improvements and A.i may bring. Ive gotten to a point where graphics are good enough.
You can do the comparisons yourself using the trailer/gameplay videos and this city picture. The jump is evident in lighting, complexity and density of the scene. Those are the areas with the biggest jump, therefore you can go on about polygon count and dimishing returns there. You can go on about leather textures not looking much better. But with all these comparison you miss the point and the areas with real progress this generation. Last gen it was materials and facial animation that stood out, this gen itās density, lightning and how dynamic scenes can be. Ultimately every generation has areas with bigger progress than other areas.
Another Ratchet comparison for good measure
I guess todd howard, John carmack and phil spencer must be incorrect about dimishing returns then. Also last gen added "density, lighting and how dynamic scenes can be. So you can stop going on about a bunch of stuff which mean nothing.
Im gonna stand by my opinion that dimininishing returns are a thing and im not the only who thinks so.
Theres plenty of people in that thread who agree with me.
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You understood what I meant. Everything gets better with new generation, but there are aspects that get an even greater jump.
Dimishing returns are starting to become a thing and at the same time next gen offers much much much more graphically. One of the developers you listed once said weāll need ~40TF for photorealism and the consoles arenāt close to that figure.
Just look at offline GCI to see how close we are to dimishing returns. Not very close, because games arenāt even close to movies like avatar.
By the way you moved the goalposts from this gen being the smallest jump in your opinion to discussing dimishing returns. The fact that dimishing returns exist doesnāt proof your overall point of this gen being just a small jump.
Games like Ratchet and Metro show a big jump and itāll only get bigger as times progress and we move away from the pandemic, which had an effect on development. thus many games that would be out right right now normally and would proof you wrong, arenāt out yet.
Personally I think its way too early to be making this kind of judgement on these games. We have yet to see a true next generation exclusive title.
I think weāll have a good idea in 2022.
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Itās a combination of consoles becoming more like PCs themselves. We had 1X that increased fidelity and resolution. We have games with longer tail so thereās a higher incentive to support the old gen, and we have at the moment an increased focus in framerate.
For example, if we compare AC4 on Ps360 to Xbone and Ps4 versus Valhalla on Ps4 and Xbone to Ps5 and SX:
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AC4 increased the resolution slightly (720p to 1080, or even 900p on xbone)
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Valhalla goes from 840p-1080p on Ps4 to 1440p-4k on the new consoles So a 2.25 increase vs a variable one of 2.9-4. So we had an even bigger increase in resolution from Ps5/SX.
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On the settings side letās call a draw. Both AC4 received improvements in the settings from Ps3 and 360. And SX and Ps5 see also higher settings in valhalla. But itās hard to quantify those. SX and PS5 does offer some settings even higher than whatās available on PC though, which was not the case for AC4 on last gen.
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However, on top of a higher resolution increase, and similar settings improved, Valhalla on SX and PS5 doubled the framerate.
So even if it doesnāt appear so, because 1x exists and muddies the water. Valhalla on SX/Ps5 is a bigger upgrade from Ps4 and Xbone than AC4 was.
Actually the SSDs should allow for a similar if not higher scene complexity. But will require pipeline to be fully realized, so it will take a couple of years to see it realized too.
However, there have been hints of whatās possible already (Hellblade 2 and UE5 demo)
Thatās again because most games right now are using them only for subtle effects. We already have some games with an extensive implementation, the most noteworthy being Metro Exodus that has the entire lighting pipeline calculated by RT.
It will again, only improve with time.
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