You’re not going to see as many native 4k/60 games on XSX as you think. My bet is devs will opt for DirectML reconstruction at 1080p-1440p, to keep 60fps while also allowing for ray tracing and higher LOD.
VRS comes into play too though. I think that will be almost impossible to discern from native 4k for pixel counters like DF.
Yeah I meant per frame/second, thanks for pointing it out
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I am perfectly OK with this! Performance > effects/animation/immersion > resolution, to oversimplify my personal preferences!
I’ll add a quick edit that extreme performance shouldn’t overshadow the rest. 60 fps min, maybe 120 for racing (and multi-player shooters I avoid at all costs)?
If you listen to several developers on ResetEra there will not be an appreciable difference between third party games this time. Time will tell I guess …
52 compute units versus 36 is a huge difference. Some devs may choose to use the extra power of the XSX for native 4k instead of added effects but I sure hope not.
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If you were a developer what things would be comfortable saying there and what things would you not? I’ll just leave it like that…
Correct, I was just pointing out that there are separate RT cores outside of the CUs in the XSX.
If a shader is handling the BVH traversal, it’s not handling any operations it would normally do is a standard rasterized frame.
The 25TF idea is misleading because this would mean there is no computational cost for having RT compared to the GPU using 12TF for a normal rasterized scene when this is clearly not true.
We really don’t know how GT7 and Forza compare. We saw an unfinished build of one and a vertical slice of another, running at 30fps on top of it.
I’m not quite sure where you’re getting the 540p resolution for the RT either.
Look at it this way, the 4K resolutions will already be more taxing for the PS5 than the XSX due to the gap in compute performance. Ray tracing will also be more taxing for the PS5 due to having fewer CUs that contain the ray accelerator hardware, along with having less bandwidth. When you combine the two, the overall result will suffer in ways.
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540p resolution comes from pixel counting from DF, they mentioned that’s the base resolution, checkerboard to 1080p (though as I typed this I just realized that this mean the resolution is actually 2x 540p, and not 540p which would be a 4x reduction from 1080p) and upscaled to 4k. Not to mention that during gameplay they weren’t even able to confirm if RT was being used due the reflection refresh rate being reduced so they couldn’t match the reflection to the surroundings.
And yes, it’s working in progress, but that’s what they decided to show so it’s the footage that we have to judge. It doesn’t mean it won’t improve, but it is what it is. Not unlike Halo Infinite demo also being judged despite not a final build as well.
Oh I’m not saying we shouldn’t judge what they showed. I just don’t think it is in any way an indication that they are running RT in software. I still hold firm that just like MS, they are using AMD’s RT hardware solution.
Pretty much all those ‘devs’ are working on small indie projects. I would imagine the differences will be more obvious with the big AAA titles.
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I only know of the one dev (Matt) who said that and he frankly isn’t reliable on this kinda stuff imho. Won’t go into details of why since thread isn’t about that.
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Time will tell. Dev on which game?
Nobody knows. Either way, this isn’t really the thread for it. No sense discussing it too much since mods will just tell us not to again, lol. 
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Without flame baiting or insulting the dev, is referencing them as a potential “expert witness” (for confirmation or counterpoint) not a valid source for hardware capability discussion?
I must be unclear where this line or distinction is as long as the discussion is data driven rather than name calling or insult slinging.
Or am I missing the point and their credentials are suspect? I have zero experience with other platforms and users.
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I agree with you, but only if it brings something to bear on the thread topic. In this case, it doesn’t since the person I referred to afaik never commented much on PS5 RT. It’s a tough balancing act, since credibility certainly needs to be sorted before anyone should take statements as valuable insights. OTOH, that leads to thread derailment usually. Mods here seem to prefer threads stay on topic, which is reasonable.
For this topic especially, I dunno what mentioning those devs offers the thread other than to say take their words with a grain of salt. We have some tech info that can be discussed like Kage and Lucas were doing. I also offered some comments on marketing angles possibly as did others. Might work better to focus on those angles, don’t ya think?
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Yeah, best to stay on topic or at least the ballpark.
If a developer makes a comment referring to next gen, a new topic can be made to discuss there.
Edit: didn’t mean to quote you but I agree with you anyways 
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What? 540p RT on PS5? Where did it come from? Can I have a source please?
Like Andrew Goosen, the Xbox System Architect said, the 25 tf performance comes into play “while” RT in on. But since there are 2 different metrics probably the calculation is hard to grasp. Indeed even if RT cores are activated it takes less some power from the gpu. We have to wait to see by how much exactly and how all comes into play. We already saw Minecraft with path tracing and it was quite impressive. It was done by 1 dev in 4 weeks and the results were incredible. 1080/30fps at the moment for full path tracing. With more time & optimization, smells good for the future
You are correct 4K is incredibly taxing for both nonetheless obviously. More for one than the other. Sometimes wish they would slice it x2 and put all the rest in effects and all but they already did 4k etc with the X1X and would be considered a downgrade to go lower.
What kind of RT features in WD Legion are already implemented?
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This is where my ignorance shines! I would assume devs working with the systems could lend light into the academic speculations and on-hand comparisons. But I know just enough about media platforms to know that can be very dangerous. I still most often sit in my work mindset that a “technical expert” is reliable and we don’t have to second guess or account for much of an agenda other than potential sales embellishments when consulting 3rd parties.
I completely understand what Andrew meant and it’s still marketing speak. The Minecraft path tracing demo only confirms what I’ve been saying. Without RT, the game would run at 4K60, no problem. However with RT, they need to cut down to 1080p with a sub 30fps frame rate. Had the notion of 13TF for Ray tracing on top of the existing 12TF for standard rasterization been true, we wouldn’t have seen performance impacted nearly this much.
I know next gen is exciting, I’m extremely excited myself, but you’re setting yourself up for disappointment if you believe the 25TF claims.
Edit: also the 540p RT resolution was coming from @LucasTaves.