Games Analysis |OT| Time To Argue About Pixels And Frames!

[strawman]

@KageMaru

5nm. I get the feeling that both MS and Sony are going to up the limit of power draw in consoles going forward, whether we’re talking Pro consoles or next gen. They pretty much have to if they hope to see noticeable performance gains.

XSX and PS5 have very limited machine learning capabilities. Next gen consoles will offer major leap on that fact alone.

[KageMaru]

@Kals_Els

But isn’t the current problem with UE5 is that it’s very new and not as well optimized or utilized by devs yet? I think if we compare it to an engine like Forzatech, we can see just how its constant involution has allowed it to be a match for UE5, but because it’s not widely adopted less people use it. Or even Rockstars Rage Engine, that has been getting steady updates throughout the years.

No doubt that’s certainly a factor but it’s important to keep in mind that, outside of Fortnite, the few UE5 games we’ve seen so far don’t use the full suite of features of the engine. Immortals will actually be the first 3rd party game to do that. So it’ll be interesting to see how that performs on a technical level. Even with that game, the studio chose to use FSR instead of the native upscaling option and they specified that was because of performance reasons.

Surely UE5 will get more optimized over time but I don’t see the engine ever moving beyond it being a jack of all trades, master of none. And as the generation continues, expectations for better looking games will grow, and the demands will continue to rise.

I’m most interested in seeing what the coalition does with UE5 this gen. Unlike most 3rd party studios, they optimize their fork of the engine like no other. They specifically called out the performance of the upscaler but said they plan to increase performance of the feature when they showed off their work a couple years ago. They are one of the few studios who have the resources to actually optimize and enhance parts of the engine to make it their own version. They added geo-caching to UE4 before Epic made it a standard feature for example.

[BRiT]

From a tech curiosity perspective, what I’m most curious about are these two segments:

FSR 3 with all the goodies and even the lesser frame generation for all DX11 / DX12 titles using motion vectors – basically AMD’s version of DLSS 3 FG with Reflux anti-lag technology. It’s about time input latency was improved.

The Cache sizes on future console products. So much of the performance is now derived from large on-chip cache. How will they balance the cost/performance/power metrics.

[pg2g]

@CallMeCraig

That means these consoles will get even bigger. I’m not a fan.

I still think Pro consoles make not a lot of sense with slowing down of Moores law. Too expensive, too big.

We will find out. If Sony is on path for a 2024 release the specs will leak this year.

Is the size of a console a major concern? I feel like it’s pretty low on my list of requirements and I’d take a receiver sized console if that was what required to get the necessary performance.

If I had my way they’d open up remove the size limitations (within reason), upper the power consumption limitations accordingly, and give us a real beast haha.

I suppose that’s what a Day 1 Pro console would be like.

[KageMaru]

@BRiT

From a tech curiosity perspective, what I’m most curious about are these two segments:

FSR 3 with all the goodies and even the lesser frame generation for all DX11 / DX12 titles using motion vectors – basically AMD’s version of DLSS 3 FG with Reflux anti-lag technology. It’s about time input latency was improved.

The Cache sizes on future console products. So much of the performance is now derived from large on-chip cache. How will they balance the cost/performance/power metrics.

Pretty sure the AFMF tech doesn’t use motion vectors. It interpolates the frames in a similar way TVs already do but with less latency.

Considering AMD’s recommendation of at least 60fps to get the best result out of FSR3, I doubt we’ll see it much on console. If anything it can help provide higher frame rates for games already targeting 60fps but won’t be used in the more demanding games targeting 30fps.

[No-1HoloLens-Fan]

@BRiT

From a tech curiosity perspective, what I’m most curious about are these two segments:

FSR 3 with all the goodies and even the lesser frame generation for all DX11 / DX12 titles using motion vectors – basically AMD’s version of DLSS 3 FG with Reflux anti-lag technology. It’s about time input latency was improved.

The Cache sizes on future console products. So much of the performance is now derived from large on-chip cache. How will they balance the cost/performance/power metrics.

That dx11-12 FSR 3 support could only be that TV soap opera like effect.

Edit: cache…the first thing console designer does to save on cost😅

[CallMeCraig]

You have to remember all these framerate or resultion upscaling techniques cost resources. Thats not free.

@pg2g

Is the size of a console a major concern? I feel like it’s pretty low on my list of requirements and I’d take a receiver sized console if that was what required to get the necessary performance.

If I had my way they’d open up remove the size limitations (within reason), upper the power consumption limitations accordingly, and give us a real beast haha.

I suppose that’s what a Day 1 Pro console would be like.

I may be weird here but i don’t want an even bigger and uglier console. The base PS5 is already real ugly and the PS4 Pro made the good looking PS4 design look real fat and bad. So i have not a lot of hope. More power consumption often results in louder consoles, so that is another thing i don’t want to see.

[pg2g]

@CallMeCraig

You have to remember all these framerate or resultion upscaling techniques cost resources. Thats not free.

I may be weird here but i don’t want an even bigger and uglier console. The base PS5 is already real ugly und the PS4 Pro made the good looking PS4 design look real fat and bad. So i have not a lot of hope. More power consumption often results in louder consoles, so that is another thing i don’t want to see.

I guess I am function over form when it comes to stuff like this. Im probably the odd man out, because I see people that don’t even want to buy a PS5 because of how ugly it is lol

[BRiT]

@KageMaru

Pretty sure the AFMF tech doesn’t use motion vectors. It interpolates the frames in a similar way TVs already do but with less latency.

Considering AMD’s recommendation of at least 60fps to get the best result out of FSR3, I doubt we’ll see it much on console. If anything it can help provide higher frame rates for games already targeting 60fps but won’t be used in the more demanding games targeting 30fps.

I misread the following statement as their FSR3 FrameGen for unsupported games using Motion Vectors, but that was off the mark. So non-direct supported titles is closer to the TV Interpolation like you said.

AMD says that this version of its frame-generation tech may not work as well as it does in games that explicitly add support for FSR 3. Where FSR 3 can use AMD’s motion-smoothing technology and motion vector data from games to improve its predictions, the HYPR-RX version can only use motion smoothing, which AMD says “can have some impact on the quality of frame generation.”

[BRiT]

@pg2g

I guess I am function over form when it comes to stuff like this. Im probably the odd man out, because I see people that don’t even want to buy a PS5 because of how ugly it is lol

I would love to see a top-tier AVR form factor console. Would fit perfectly in the entertainment rack.

[KageMaru]

@CallMeCraig

You have to remember all these framerate or resultion upscaling techniques cost resources. Thats not free.

Yeah, FSR3 utilizing async compute is not an approach I’m entirely fond of, especially since it’s a great resource for devs to improve the base performance. It’s also one of the reasons I’m skeptical of how much it’ll be utilized in the console space.

[SteadyMercury]

@pg2g

Is the size of a console a major concern? I feel like it’s pretty low on my list of requirements and I’d take a receiver sized console if that was what required to get the necessary performance.

If I had my way they’d open up remove the size limitations (within reason), upper the power consumption limitations accordingly, and give us a real beast haha.

I suppose that’s what a Day 1 Pro console would be like.

It’s probably not an issue until it is. Obviously there’s the internet points component to say the Xbox One and to an extent PS5. But I don’t think that’s a major factor.

I would think something the size of an AV receiver could become an issue because people don’t have space for it anymore. So many TVs mounted above fireplaces these days. Or without any traditional TV stand.

Way I see it it’s likely not an issue until it doesn’t fit or might impact operation. Then you’re limiting the consumer base and that likely doesn’t help.

[Staffy]

Immortals of Aveum PS5/Xbox Series X/S: Unreal Engine 5 is Pushed Hard - And Image Quality Suffers

720p native

FSR 2 upscale to 4K on both X and PS5. That noise effect they show is absolutely horrible.

In these cases I’d say give me 30fps and give us decent visuals please. Wonder what’s going on here, hopefully just a “unique” case and don’t happen too often, or perhaps mid gen refresh IS necessary? Sigh.

I realize it’s UE5 though. And DF did warn how demanding 60fps for consoles would be a while ago.

[daifuco (Jose Pagan)]

I think Nintendo will not mess up the Switch 2 and it will be a modest but decent upgrade for most people. Probably around the level of the Series S.

If most people have been happy with the Switch I dont see any point on raising the standard above series S quality.

[pg2g]

@daifuco

I think Nintendo will not mess up the Switch 2 and it will be a modest but decent upgrade for most people. Probably around the level of the Series S.

If most people have been happy with the Switch I dont see any point on raising the standard above series S quality.

They wouldn’t be able to get to a Series S, just like we can’t get to a Series S portable.

[KageMaru]

@Staffy

…

720p native FSR 2 upscale to 4K on both X and PS5. That noise effect they show is absolutely horrible. In these cases I’d say give me 30fps and give us decent visuals please. Wonder what’s going on here, hopefully just a “unique” case and don’t happen too often, or perhaps mid gen refresh IS necessary? Sigh. I realize it’s UE5 though. And DF did warn how demanding 60fps for consoles would be a while ago.

Features like lumen and nanite are costly. Epic’s original quoted performance target for UE5 on consoles was 1440p30 IIRC, so maybe this is the best we can get with the current iteration if devs target 60fps. It’s results like this that give merit to a pro console imo. It’s also why I’m so disappointed that so much of the industry has moved over to UE5. Wish CD Project Red, crystal dynamics, croteam, and others stuck with their own proprietary engines.

[pg2g]

@KageMaru

Features like lumen and nanite are costly. Epic’s original quoted performance target for UE5 on consoles was 1440p30 IIRC, so maybe this is the best we can get with the current iteration if devs target 60fps. It’s results like this that give merit to a pro console imo. It’s also why I’m so disappointed that so much of the industry has moved over to UE5. Wish CD Project Red, crystal dynamics, croteam, and others stuck with their own proprietary engines.

It’s not like you have to use both Lumen and Nanite if using UE5 though. They could do baked lighting like most other engines are doing and get a ton of that performance back.

[Staffy]

@KageMaru

Features like lumen and nanite are costly. Epic’s original quoted performance target for UE5 on consoles was 1440p30 IIRC, so maybe this is the best we can get with the current iteration if devs target 60fps. It’s results like this that give merit to a pro console imo. It’s also why I’m so disappointed that so much of the industry has moved over to UE5. Wish CD Project Red, crystal dynamics, croteam, and others stuck with their own proprietary engines.

Yeah agreed. CDPR’s engine is absolutely fine and whatever CD was using for Avengers and Tomb Raider was great too. I am glad as hell BGS stuck with their own engine.

With quite a lot of upcoming games being UE5 I can definitely start to see why pro consoles indeed aren’t a bad idea. If a Pro could run this game in 60fps with a much higher resolution, that’s already enough reason for me to sell my current one and get the new one. Please let MS not sleep on this, sigh.

After all they are using UE5 too, quite a few of their studios. Avowed being one iirc, or is that 4?

[pg2g]

@Staffy

Yeah agreed. CDPR’s engine is absolutely fine and whatever CD was using for Avengers and Tomb Raider was great too. I am glad as hell BGS stuck with their own engine.

With quite a lot of upcoming games being UE5 I can definitely start to see why pro consoles indeed aren’t a bad idea. If a Pro could run this game in 60fps with a much higher resolution, that’s already enough reason for me to sell my current one and get the new one. Please let MS not sleep on this, sigh.

After all they are using UE5 too, quite a few of their studios. Avowed being one iirc, or is that 4?

Avowed might use Unreal Engine 5, but I doubt it’s using both Nanite and Lumen which is the real problem here.

[Ulster36thDiv]

It’s simple. If you want 4K 60fps gaming. Go get an AMD 5800x3d CPU, 16gb of RAM and at least an RTX 3080 12gb.

There’s to much focus on 4k for the consoles. 1440p is fine on my gaming PC, it would allow plenty of headroom on the Series X by removing the burden on the GPU.