Xbox 2025 Layoff Thread (crazy we need one...)

Yep in a similar way to Xbox, we use Microsoft stuff as it’s widely supported, easy to get higher ups to pay for (as they’re already used to buying Office licenses for example) and it’s what most of us are used to.

But they really do make it a pain in the arse to like their stuff lol, from deprecating something to then deprecating the replacement and bringing it back (OLE DB and SQL Native Client lol) to constantly pushing versions out of support and using Windows Update to remove them (.NET Core versions in particular).

And every “new” thing seems to decrease the amount the technology does for you and increase the workload / potential issues lol

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I suppose that is possible if they combined the studios. They don’t really need to have Motorsport and Horizon being developed/releasing at the same time. They can have one team that alternates releases.

I stand corrected but since Xbox games that were $70 in the US were 80 euros here I assumed that the $80 would be 90e here, I guess Xbox didn’t go up to 90e here after all which is good news.

Sorry if I confused anyone, that wasn’t my intention.

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Unfortunately I think if that ever happened, you’d get a Motorsport once every 10 to 15 years if something new happened that made it worthwhile.

The Horizon series is way too popular for one to never not be in development - we know 6 is coming next year, it was always going to be green-lit given Horizon 5 has reached 40 to 50 million players and they’ll probably hope for even higher if they release day 1 on PS5 too.

That’s more than 10 times the best estimates I’ve seen for Forza Motorsport (and I say that as someone who has played it and enjoyed his time with it).

Forza Horizon can do a new map every game, and people like me will jump in every single game and waste days of our lives in it lol, enjoying cruising with friends as well as doing all the campaign stuff.

Motorsport is much more of a sim which has a much lower player count - and what can they do in a new one that they haven’t done in this one? They can add new tracks to the existing one and are already signed up to do a load of car packs - ray tracing was possibly the big new thing this time, but until we get some major technology advancement what would a new one do differently?

And unfortunately they’ve got competition from both sides - arcade / fun side from Horizon and others, and the hardcode sim side from smaller devs who can get things out quicker / just continuously update their games (like Assetto Corsa).

So if the studios were combined, unfortunately I don’t think we’d see another Motorsport for a long, long time - not until Horizon loses some of its steam…

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I realise while saying this that is exactly what F1 and FIFA (or EA Sports) does every year - release the same game again and again, but I guess at least the football players and F1 cars change a bit sometimes?

And Motorsport unfortunately doesn’t have quite the same huge following as those games / sports.

I still think though that current Motorsport as we’ve discussed above has the great potential to be a live service game and keep its current players (and keep them spending money) and potentially grow in the future… That’s kind of what I thought the half of Turn 10 had been kept for

US prices are before tax, while UK/EU prices already include tax. No one is getting screwed. (At least not as much as people like to think.)

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I’ll continue to preface these comments acknowledging the human element here and hoping everyone impacted lands on their feet:

None of the cuts have particularly surprised me. I’m disappointed in Booty’s leadership over first-party for not having snuffed out several of these projects sooner, and ultimately that years have been wasted which will impact output moving forward.

I want big AAA games from Xbox and the Obsidian model alone won’t suffice for me personally. They need to figure out how to deliver large quality games within Xbox Studios specifically. I won’t shed a tear for Everwild or Motorsport as IP, but Perfect Dark and The Initiative represented Xbox committing to producing “bangers”.

I’ll be very controversial and say even this year, supposedly a god-tier run for Xbox, has not impressed me. Compulsion and South of Midnight were not worth waiting six years for. On the second-party side of the house, the sterile and bland Towerborne is a poor representation of partnership efforts. I’d easily rank 2021 and 2014 lineups over this year.

Looking ahead, something has to change. I totally respect if you’re someone who liked Hellblade 2, but that game should not have taken five years of development. State of Decay 3 should be out by now. We should have had the next Gears in our hands already. Some of these studios are either taking Xbox for a ride or are being managed poorly.

I say that to circle back on the theme of the thread and suggest this won’t be the end of layoffs unless something fundamental changes at Xbox. Not necessarily ActiBliz or Bethesda, but Xbox Studios who I feel have whelmed more than impressed. I’ll go out of my way to point out that I’m not saying there haven’t been great games along the way.

I mentioned Obsidian at the top, not my cup of tea thus far, but they’re at least delivering. InXile and Clockwork appears to represent what we thought these acquisitions would do: empower talented teams to punch above their weight. We need more of that. At least after all these years I can look at what InXile is working on and be taken aback at its fidelity, scope, and depth relative to the studio’s size.

This is a bit off topic but I found the latest Xbox showcase to be good - not great. In this time of transition of business models and messaging, the one thing Xbox needs to deliver on if nothing else are great to fantastic games.

Not good games - certainly not middling titles or games that are pretty good because we get them via Game Pass for “free”. Otherwise, you run the risk of losing the few still left hanging around. I don’t want to see anyone else lose their jobs. Xbox’s leadership has to do better.

This isn’t an emotionally charged critique of Xbox. Again, I can’t disagree with a lot of the cuts here. I only game on Xbox. I love Game Pass. But I think there’s some validity in the criticism I’m leveraging with the intent of wanting the games, platform and brand to be better.

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Good post. We have some different tastes in individual games and even as someone who largely enjoys Xbox’s output, they can and should have done better over the past decade. I think Phil Spencer has done a lot of great stuff but Xbox should never have been in the position where games like Forza and Halo churned for years and years and then released games that didn’t hit. Perfect Dark and Everwild stuck in development hell. It shouldn’t have been allowed to happen.

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Well, with $70/80€ Europeans were paying more as it the price was exceeding $70+VAT in most countries. And now with $80/80€ some Europeans are paying bit less pre-tax since for some countries $80+VAT exceeds 80€.

And then there is Poland which pays the most in Europe, and that sometimes includes games costing more than on PS.

To be fair, we did have a pandemic that impacted a lot of development, and development times have skyrocketed for everyone, not just Xbox.

While UE5 has been adding tools that are hoped to start to reverse the ever-increasing development times, the truth is the move from UE4 to UE5 has also added development time and increased how long some projects have had to stay in the oven for.

Yes a couple of projects have gone on too long and probably should have been killed off earlier, and a few got to release but weren’t quite “there” compared to how long they’d been in development for - but I do see Xbox learning from that, and now they’ve got so many more studios they can afford to not announce games so early (which then means delays are public, or you’re forced into delivering before the game is really ready).

The long development times are not just an Xbox thing - other than Insomniac (who work very similarly to Obsidian), Sony’s studios have also been in development hell a lot, I mean we’ve got this entire generation without anything new from many of their biggest studios.

It’s an industry-wide challenge, and if you look at Outer Worlds 2 you’ll see Xbox have been starting to push more towards “banger” status as you put it, and Forza Horizon 6 next year will be nothing short of massive as they always are - and I’ve no doubt Fable will be too.

This year yes we’ve had some smaller AAA releases that maybe don’t hit the Sony AAA third-person misery-simulator levels, but Avowed and Indiana Jones were big impressive games with plenty to do (I’ve not yet started South of Midnight so can’t compare)…

What would you call major “bangers” that have released in recent years anyway? As it can differ for different people - for example I’d probably say AC Shadows is one, being a huge, polished AAA game, but others might not…

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It can be difficult to stop though - often the idea sounds great and they start to build a game out of it, only to realise it’ll require much more complex systems than they planned or it’s just not fun - and then you’re probably far enough down the line that as a studio you’re aware if you cancel it rather than plough on you’re liable to be hit by layoffs in the current climate (although yes management above the studios needed to be better in the past).

Everwild always appeared to me more as an art style and idea that was in search of a game - while Perfect Dark it feels like they were having issues with the sheer scale of the project (hence why CD and others were brought in to help) - particularly due to the pressure that Perfect Dark had to be Xbox’s answer to Sony’s AAA games.

Definitely there are aspects that could have been better managed, but I imagine the decisions have been made easier now Xbox has a decent pipeline of games in place so isn’t each game isn’t quite so make-or-break for Xbox’s entire year.

Halo is a very particular issue, given that SlipSpace was such an ass to develop with but expected by the community as it allowed for such powerful Forge tools - and the reception possibly not helped I suspect by Halo losing its cultural impact a little since Bungie’s trilogy and PlayStation starting to corner the market with it being such an Xbox icon and a target for the console wars.

Who knows, with the move to UE5, going multi-plat so it’s got more players and better reviews, and perhaps a new, better TV series (if possible, I really hope they do as I did actually enjoy the one we got!) or perhaps rebooting the series completely given the lore is getting a bit thick now, it may be a massive hit again :crossed_fingers:

Forza Motorsport I tend to agree it took too long and released with too little content - I suspect the team was busy updating ForzaTech and may have had scope creep too, but it might have all been OK if it had released to a large audience - unfortunately the audience for mainstream driving sims has been dwindling in recent years while the hardcore element has been well fed by other sims.

It’s an issue we’re really starting to see happen more now - publishers / developers want to jump on the zeitgeist, whether that’s battle royale, team shooters, looter shooters or live service, but by the time they actually release gamers have moved on to a new trend and it looks dated, just ask Concord.

I suspect that’s what’s killed the Zenimax looter-shooter (given FairGame$ and others will come out first and aren’t exactly getting a warm welcome) and may also be causing additional dev delays - as devs are made by publishers to pivot towards the latest trend (maybe less one for Xbox, but definitely seems to be happening for some other pubs)

It’s probably right for the studio to announce about the position regarding with FM. It’s technically still alive, so much like Halo Studios, they had to announce what is their position after mass of firing. I understand these reports come from fire employees but a meeting could have been held after their departure. It is no longer their concern as harsh it may sound.

Basically, wait for official word to know the future.

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Absolutely - totally respect different perspectives on what constitutes as those big blockbuster games. For me, as someone who was looking forward to Avowed, that really underwhelmed in its depth. It felt budget. Indiana Jones, however, is an example of the caliber I think Xbox’s teams should be shooting for.

When I think of third-parties, titles like Jedi: Survivor or Final Fantasy Rebirth come to mind. I’m not saying Xbox doesn’t have AAA quality games, but it feels like it’s been a while since we’ve gotten one from Xbox Studios and again, Perfect Dark represented a big budget endeavor.

I just don’t think a South of Midnight or Hellblade 2 with AA scope but AAA development time will suffice anymore. I do stop and pause when I think of State of Decay 3 and really question how AAA that will be in the context of it releasing maybe next year at the earliest which is seven years or so since the last game.

I touched on second-party a bit with Towerborne, but look at a game like OD, too. I’m not sure anyone is thinking this cloud game will be a AAA project like Death Stranding. If Contraband isn’t cancelled it probably should be at this point. Ninja Gaiden seems to be the hottest thing to have come out of that group in many years.

So, again, the point just being that Xbox has areas they need to improve. I’m not confident in some of the studios’ futures whose games I’ve mentioned like a Compulsion or Ninja Theory. There needs to be better leadership, project management, development timelines that warrant the games being made.

Referencing my original post, with several larger projects canned, I’m just not in this for the long haul if Xbox Studios struggles to get these larger games out the door and is relying on remakes, remasters, and smaller titles to flesh out their offering.

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Their development time was severely impacted by Covid, it didn’t occur in a bubble.

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That’s what PlayStation is doing though - remasters, most of their biggest studios haven’t released a single game this generation, they’re suffering from the same Covid impact and ever-increasing development times as everyone else.

So when you say not in for the long haul, do you mean just buying Xbox first party, or completely swapping to PlayStation? As think you’ll be disappointed there too…

On the plus side, Xbox are being ruthless now so it is likely oversight is improving - I personally couldn’t imagine ditching my Xbox for a PS5 now given next year we’ve got Fable, Forza Horizon 6 and a new Gears…

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If I never hear/read the term “banger” ever again in relation to gaming it would be amazing , Avowed , Towerborne and South of Midnite were all great games. I’m honestly surprised people who love walk/talk sims didn’t love Hellblade 2 , might have more to do with what platform it was on more than anything else (was def the case with more than a few Streamers who played it). I’m sorry but I can’t see anyone who actually enjoys games downplaying the recent line up of Xbox Studios games.

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“Is MS the most evilest company ever?” is legit a thread on GAF. I’m laughing and rolling my eyes at the same time…

Yup, extremely evil, and Sony, Nintendo, Google, Apple and so on are truly saints compared to MS. :joy:

Do not get me wrong, this is extremely bad news and it sucks beyond comprehension for those affected but…

Most big companies are fucking shit, do not care about your ass, whether you work there or buy their shit doesn’t matter. They love your money and that’s all there is to it.

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Lol there’s a reason I always put it in the double quotes, as it’s definitely not a term I like using.

I also notice apart from maybe GTA (which I think is overhyped as fuck anyway lol) it’s nearly always applied by gaming media solely to PlayStation’s first party, third-person misery porn anyway…

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Lol it does highlight a complete lack of intelligence over there, with no knowledge of history.

There are other examples, but one that springs to mind is the East India Company - if they think MS are evil they’ll have their minds blown when they find out what those fuckers did…

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