Apple offered Epic to put Fortnite back on the App Store if they just go back to the way it was before Epic became greedy hypocrites. However, Epic refuses to do so, so LEGALLY Apple has every right to pull their credentials from the store. As for the rest, I don’t want malware-infested crap able to download on iOS. Apple never claimed to be open, and has never advertised their phone in that manner - they have been adamant on this for a long time with security being the main focus. Epic, on the other hand, would probably put some script on your phone that looks at all your contact information just like they did on PC until they were caught. People seem to conveniently forget that little incident. If you want XCloud so badly, then buy an Android. Plain and simple … Apple doesn’t care if you ditch their phone, so what is the problem?
well that’s certainly a take. Let’s just agree to disagree.
Edit: Just a FYI, iOS isn’t secure because of app vetting in the app store, that’s just a one part of it. Secure Boot, Encrypted App Data, Apps running in Sandboxes with limited access, key managers that are isolated and hardware based. Firewalls and Antivirus protection built in. If you had other sources you would obviously only want to go to trusted places. But it wouldn’t exactly open the flood gates, and tbh most people would probably just stick to the Apple App Store. Anyway, iOS is a modern OS with security in mind. It wouldn’t be an issue.
Fair enough. I care about security way more than convenience, but that could be because I am an expert in Internet security, and have seen the results of an open system first hand.
Judge agrees with my (layman) take. 
It’s the only thing that makes any sense at this point. EGS will probably have to “reset” the Fortnite app on the iPhone, as Apple told them they could. Or they can just remove it completely … Also love how the judge tells Epic that there cannot be irreparable harm to their reputation when they instigated everything in the first place. Basically, Apple will be looked at as a monopoly, but the the judge also said that 30% is the industry standard. Nothing will change from this except that lawyers get richer, so Epic just looks stupid - par for the course.
Hard to argue it is irreparable when Apple gives them an easy fix to repair it, lol.
Epic is more in the wrong here because they are the ones who have a responsibility to their users of UE. It was fully within Epic’s plan to use them and Fornite users as leverage against Apple and IMO it backfired. Now Apple definitely isn’t a good guy here going scorched earth and burning developers small and large for what Epic did, but it is within their rights to not give Epic access to their tools anymore. If Epic is willing to sneak in a means to bypass Apple’s system in Fortnite, what is stopping them from doing the same with UE? Yeah Apple may be acting in revenge, but they definitely shouldn’t trust Epic at all.
Epic who is supposedly doing this “for the developers” just used them as leverage and screwed them over because they are either too stupid for underestimating just how ruthless Apple is, or they knew and didn’t care.
In my (layman) view, the problem with your argument is that it then puts Apple in a position of violating their own contracts with countless 3rd parties not named EPIC. Apple has legal agreements with these 3rd parties where they agreed to provide review procedures and other infrastructure for updating the 3rd party’s apps to keep them in line with security provisions and whatnot. Apple’s move violates every single one of these contracts with uninvolved 3rd parties using UE and does so unilaterally without legal merit most likely.
Just because it is within Apple’s rights wrt dealing with EPIC does not mean it is within their rights wrt dealing with all those 3rd parties. The question you posed is strange. You ask what stops EPIC from sneaking in bypass features to UE itself, but devs have to include such a feature in the game. And those devs would then be subject to having their game taken down as per Apple’s ToS.
Based on how the judge behaved in the hearing this evening, she genuinely seems like she might very well hand both angles on the case to EPIC (shockingly). We shall see though. She 100% ain’t buying your argument about UE though.
Just read some of the case comments and apparently Epic may have UE listed under a different company than Fortnite, so they theoretically could get around it on that alone, though the Judge may not care about this.
As for Apple, it is my understanding they are not threatening removing developers from the store because they use UE, they are just threatening to remove Epic’s access to their tools which jeopardizes the ability for UE to keep compatibility with the store/iOS. That means developers couldn’t just faithfully use UE to develop for iOS, they’d have to develop tools on top themselves or switch to another game engine. So there really isn’t a violation between Apple and developers using UE.
As for UE having a means to bypass Apple security, yes a developer would have to implement it into a game or app themselves, but that is the point. Apple doesn’t want to have that out there and have to police it. Epic in theory could build a bypass into their engine and attempt to mobilize a bunch of developers into bypassing Apple’s rules and cause all sorts of havoc. Now of course that is a bit conspiracy theory, but based on Epic’s actions I’d be on edge if I were Apple. Epic being 40% owned by Tencent doesn’t help either when you start looking at them with scrutiny.
Now it seems like the judge is not allowing Apple to revoke tools for UE, which is fine. I did say it was Apple acting in revenge most likely, but I still do think they have grounds to pull Epic’s developer account/access to tools due to the break of trust. However I am perfectly fine with not allowing Apple to pull the tools unless Epic actually uses UE in such a way that hurts them.
I don’t see the distinction between Apple essentially banning UE and Apple targeting devs and their titles for inevitable removal from the store. The real world result is exactly the same, you are just framing it differently.
Apple would be able to void contracts with unrelated parties unilaterally if they used UE. Their decision would have lead to UE apps violating ToS purely on the basis of Apple’s purely discretionary actions and Apple would then punish/remove the dev privileges. That precedent would let them basically opt to void their legal contracts as they saw fit. That is literally what is happening wrt EPIC here…Apple didn’t like them saying mean things so they retaliated by unilaterally voiding EPIC’s dev access for the game engine. And the judge ruled that was very clearly not legal. If UE is treated as a separate business entity than EPIC as publisher of Fortnite, then your argument becomes even weaker. That is Apple targeting EPIC as UE developer for something EPIC the game developer did. This is an example of precisely the threatening actions by Apple I was talking about, just applied to EPIC the UE developer.
Devs can already implement measures to bypass store policies and violate ToS. EPIC just did it, of course. That wasn’t done through some backdoor feature in UE. It was just something they programmed into Fortnite. Devs would need to pass their updates through review first and Apple would need to sign off on them before any havoc could be wreaked.
Where is Apple targeting other devs? All they threatened to do was cancel Epic’s developer account which provided them with the tools that they would need to keep UE up to date with iOS. If Epic couldn’t keep UE up to do for use with iOS, then it would lead to apps developed in UE potentially breaking when Apple put out an update. This would force developers to find another solution, either on top of UE or a switch to another development tool set completely. They weren’t threatening developers or voiding contracts for using UE. All they were doing is breaking their UE tools (eventually). That would make developers drop UE, not because their contacts would be terminated by Apple, but because UE would simply cease to work for iOS development. Yes the real world result is still an incredibly shitty deal for these developers, but this is completely different than just flat out booting a developer out of the store for using UE.
The judge did stop Apple from punishing Epic (UE) based on Epic (Fornite) for now but I do not believe that means Apple won’t eventually be able to terminate Epic (UE) agreement depending on what happens during the trial. Developers using UE for iOS aren’t out of the woods yet.
Apple cannot deny devs the tools that Apple already agreed to provide them access to in their legal contracts on the basis of Apple wanting to punish some unrelated company. That would be an illegal breach of contract and would open the door to let Apple wiggle out of any contract they like and even bully devs as they saw fit to retain access to what they are legally obliged to provide. It’d cause irreparable harm to the devs purely on the basis of wanting to attack EPIC.
Apple would get buried in a class action lawsuit if they were allowed to do what they tried to do to UE. That’s almost certainly an open and shut case for Apple to lose.
Oh wait when you talk about innocent “devs” are you talking about Epic’s UE company?
No I am a talking about other devs.
Apple wouldn’t be denying other devs their tools though. They are just denying their own tools from Epic only, such that EPIC can no longer update UE to use iOS properly. Other devs who use UE will eventually no longer be able to use UE for iOS development. This was also a statement against Epic’s implication that Apple does little and just collects a check.
Apple didn’t threaten to do anything to any other dev other than Epic. Apple’s hurting of other devs only comes indirectly.
Of course this is unless you have an example I am not aware of. I haven’t follow this ordeal that closely
They would be turning the dev’s updates down on the basis of something Apple unilaterally decided to do. The devs would be entirely cut off from the process of getting games updated and on the store. Apple would then not be living up to their own contractual agreements with those devs. Apple can cast blame at EPIC for that, but legally those devs and their contracts would not find such an accusation relevant. It isn’t their responsibility to retroactively cater their titles to Apple’s retaliatory whims. Nowhere in those agreements does it say the contract can be terminated on the basis of Apple being annoyed by some unrelated party.
You keep saying Apple didn’t threaten those devs…but of course they did. They have no legitimate basis for that secondary action (as the judge noted). They did that exclusively to attack EPIC via UE and the bystanders are the devs. Apple did 100% knowing the real world result was irreparable harm to these countless devs, even counting on it to intimidate EPIC.
The contracts Apple signs with devs doesn’t include clauses that say if Apple is upset with EPIC the devs’ games can get delisted…
Why would they turn down the devs updates? Devs wouldn’t be cut off from updating their games/apps in the store. They aren’t doing anything to those devs directly nothing changes between other devs and Apple. Those other devs can all still use UE if they want. The only thing that would happen is Epic wouldn’t be able to update UE so there is potential of things not working properly when Apple updates their store/iOS and Epic isn’t able to account for those updates in UE. The independent devs just couldn’t rely on UE for 100% compatibility anymore. Apple wasn’t terminating anyone else’s contract nor were they going to delist any other games. They weren’t applying a ban of developers using UE on Apple platforms.
We must be working on two completely different sets of information, so maybe I am completely mixed up here. Hopefully someone will chime in on this.
You seem to acknowledge the issue right after saying it isn’t an issue…?
UE not being able to update means it will fall out of line with security requirements, meaning the apps that use it likewise fall short of those security requirements and will fail review. Hence, they get delisted or at best lose access to future customers that Apple had guaranteed them access to in their contractual agreements. Apple’s unilaterally, unjustified actions taken against an unrelated party then results in Apple breaching these contracts. I’m saying Apple’s actions inevitably lead to those contracts being breached by Apple not allowing access to dev tools that those devs were promised. Not that Apple was directly saying the contracts were terminated, rather that such a result follows irrevocably from their actions a few steps down the line.
I’ve explained it a few times now and I do think we are going in circles. Nobody else besides us seems interested enough to comment. 
Without reading the contract language, it’s impossible to say what will/won’t happen one way or another. It’s all just speculation at this point unless one of you is a contract lawyer and has access to Apple contracts with game developers. 
Eh, not really. We are talking about the most basic elements of what the contract terms are here. Not the quirky minutia. Apple has a platform and requires dev tools be used to sell on their store. They allow access to the tools and procedures (like review process for updates) and devs can sell on their platform and Apple takes a 30% cut. That isn’t speculation. It is spelled out in EPIC’s legal complaints and is also common sense for platforms like this.